KDE.org/Meetings/September08/Log
- kde-www meeting October 10, 2008
Time adjusted to UCT. Minimally edited: removed nick-collision and server-glitch /leave and /join; fixed typos likely to confuse. Quod scripsimus, scripsimus.
/who
evan_ H 0 [email protected] [Evan Sanders] lemma H 0 [email protected] [Quassel IRC User] troubalex_H 0 [email protected] [Alexandra] neverendingoH 0 [email protected] [Ingo Malchow] OhReally H 0 [email protected] [Rob la Lau] ungethym H 0 [email protected] [Thomas Thym] corneliusH 0 [email protected] [sirc user] gkiagia H 0 [email protected] [George Kiagiadakis] rakeknivenH 0 [email protected] [Mark] annma H 0 [email protected] [Anne-Marie Mahfouf] Socceroos_homeH 0 [email protected] [purple] cuco H 0 [email protected] [cuco] frankkarlitschekH 0 [email protected] [Frank Karlitschek] Salze_ H 0 [email protected] [Salze] annew H 0 [email protected] [Anne Wilson] tstaerk_ H 0 [email protected] [Unknown] ShashankSinghH 0 [email protected] [KVIrc 3.2.4 'Anomalies' http://kvirc.net/] MelchiorreH 0 [email protected] [Melchior Mazzone] Guest72727G 0 [email protected] [pvandewyngaerde] NightroseH 0 n=lydia@amarok/rokymotion/nightrose [Lydia Pintscher] ruphy H 0 i=quassel@kde/ruphy [Riccardo Iaconelli] teprrr H 0 i=tpr@kde/developer/rytilahti [Teemu rytilahti] irina_r H 0 [email protected] [Irina Rempt] Jucato H 0 n=Jucato@ubuntu/member/Jucato [Juan Carlos G. Torres] _CitizenKane_H 0 [email protected] [Kyle Cunningham] argnel H 0 [email protected] [Konversation User] SocceroosH 0 [email protected] [purple] Mek G 0 [email protected] [Marijn Kruisselbrink] apacheloggerH 0 n=quassel@amarok/rokymotion/apachelogger [Quassel IRC User] StecchinoG 0 n=quassel@amarok/developer/Stecchino [Bart Cerneels]
Transcript
12:04: <Socceroos_home> ok, we'll officially open the meeting now
12:04: <frankkarlitschek> hi
12:04: <Melchiorre> For those that missed the agenda: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kde.org/Meetings/September08 and http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kde.org/Planning
12:04: <Socceroos_home> We might start with the meeting outline and work our way through
12:05: <frankkarlitschek> good idea
12:05: <Socceroos_home> just jump in with your thoughts, ideas, criticism.
12:06: <Socceroos_home> Well, first up, we might as well talk about the current state of the KDE.org websites
12:06: <Melchiorre> ..which is pretty poor in some cases...
12:06: <annma> keeping a website up-to-date means at least 1 willing person with knowledge
12:07: <annma> willing is the key word
12:07: <irina_r> knowledge of what, exactly?
12:07: <Jucato> willing *and* able :)
12:07: <annma> knowledge of the content
12:07: <Jucato> ah but also of whatever CMS or wiki that will be used
12:07: <annma> for ex for edu.kde.org you need to know the apps state
12:07: <_CitizenKane_> and knowledge of SVN in some cases
12:08: <annma> that's easy to get
12:08: <irina_r> I'd need a crash course in that case :-)
12:08: <rakekniven> Not for users
12:08: <irina_r> but being married to boud *that* is easy to get too
12:08: <frankkarlitschek> better than maintaining the content by hand would be if the content would be automatically fetched from existing data sources.
12:08: <Jucato> for example, annew and are very much willing to maintain userbase , but we both suck at PHP and MediaWiki :)
12:09: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: could you elaborate on that?
12:09: <Jucato> oops mom's home and dinner... bbl
12:09: <frankkarlitschek> like for example more prominent news from the dot
12:09: <annew> yup - I know no php and little mediawiki
12:09: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: the kde website itself is maintained through SVN, with commit hooks
12:09: <irina_r> I've only just started trying to teach myself pho
12:09: <irina_r> php, confound it
12:09: <rakekniven> I am working also on kde.de. 3 Volunteers disappeared because of svn
12:09: <irina_r> 'pho' would perhaps be yummy but not very useful in this case
12:09: <frankkarlitschek> or the kde commit digest is an excellent stuff. this could be on the kde.org homepage. with a niced layout of course.
12:10: <rakekniven> I would vote for a cms or wiki usage for kde.org pages
12:10: <frankkarlitschek> or the developer of the week. or the user of the week
12:10: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: that would be really nice, would be pretty easy to code as well
12:10: <frankkarlitschek> maintaining "static" content with an wiki or an cms. is not the future for a community project IMHO
12:10: <lemma> I like the idea of a CMS. like that you can separate the task of setting it up and of maintaining it
12:10: <Socceroos_home> agreed
12:11: <Socceroos_home> static content isn't going to stay relevant/exciting for long
12:11: <frankkarlitschek> exactly
12:11: <annma> yes
12:11: <frankkarlitschek> and it is a lot of work to keep it up to date
12:11: <rakekniven> static content is always outdated :-)
12:12: <rakekniven> /areas/appmonth is a wiki page in techbase. Remove it from svn. Link http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kde.org/Application_of_the_month Should I do that?
12:12: <cuco> i would like to add, that as a site maintainer, it's impossible to maintain a KDE site using the current scheme, unless you have a local apache/php installation
12:12: <irina_r> *some* static content is of course necessary, you have to have the information somewhere
12:12: <irina_r> does everybody do it on their own servers?
12:12: <irina_r> (ours is probably close to being overloaded already, and not very fast)
12:12: <Melchiorre> So is it fair to say that the current state of the websites involves a lot of static ocntent that is hard to maintain and hence outdated?
12:12: <Socceroos_home> cuco: very true
12:13: <Socceroos_home> Melchiorre: yep
12:13: <frankkarlitschek> for example multimedia.kde.org would be a lot more interesting and easier to maintain if you could see the blog post of the developers, twitter posts, svn commits and stuff from the commit digest there. and easier to maintain than boring static texts
12:13: <annma> totally
12:13: <irina_r> blog-like setup is nice
12:14: <cornelius> frankkarlitschek: that's a good point. this kind of dynamic content would be great to have on the sub-community sites.
12:14: <annew> but there needs to be a way of asking questions too
12:14: <annma> and to share data
12:14: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: that's a great point, actually I think having a laconica (http://laconi.ca/trac/) install for KDE would be one way to help with that
12:14: <Socceroos_home> to be able to make the content more dynamic we will need to identify the data sources that we can draw off. This will also be useful for the open collaboration side of things
12:14: <irina_r> and getting the answers somewhere in public so everybody can benefit
12:13: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: getting a blog like setup is pretty easy with a CMS
12:13: <cornelius> I think we should separate the technical and the content discussion.
12:13: <irina_r> never worked with one unless you count blosxom, but I learn fast
12:13: <frankkarlitschek> yes. good point
12:13: <cornelius> how it's implemented is the second question.
12:16: <frankkarlitschek> yes
12:16: <cornelius> the first question is what do we want to have on our web pages.
12:16: <frankkarlitschek> and using a cms, or wiki or blog isn't solving the main problem. which is the generation and maintaining of the texts and contents.
12:17: <Socceroos_home> dynamic content. Specifically? others can answer that, Frank had some good examples
12:17: <Nightrose> troubalex_: here?
12:17: <annma> we want up-to-date information and data sharing for Edu
12:17: <Nightrose> hmm doesn't seem so so I will jump in
12:17 -!- edneymatias [[email protected]] has joined #kde-www
12:18: <Nightrose> noserub.com <- open source friendfeed version
12:18: <Socceroos_home> Ok - how are we going to go about sorting through the information to sift out the obsolete data?
12:18: <Nightrose> maybe that is interesting for you
12:18: <cornelius> annew: what kind of info do you want to have on the web site?
12:18: <edneymatias> hi all
12:18: <Nightrose> that would be handy in agregating blogs/twitter/... feeds of developers
12:18: <annma> you mean me probably cornelius
12:19: <cornelius> annma: yes, sorry.
12:19: <annma> users want mostly apps related info, tips, latest news
12:19: <frankkarlitschek> annma: yes. good point
12:20: <annew> annma: agreed
12:20: <annma> demos
12:20: <annew> and one easy place to find it
12:20: <cornelius> annma: for apps related info and tips userbase would be the right platform, wouldn't it?
12:20: <Socceroos_home> yeah
12:20: <annew> (or links to it)
12:20: <frankkarlitschek> annma: and this stuff should be user generated. or fetched from other existing sources. not maintained by hand
12:20: <Nightrose> identoo.com <- is a website running noserub
12:20: <_CitizenKane_> annew: along with that, it would be great to have a place for screencasts and things like that
12:20: <annew> _CitizenKane_: indeed
12:21: <irina_r> some moderation for user generated content?
12:21: <annew> frankkarlitschek: part user generated
12:21: <annew> part fetched, I agree
12:21: <annew> irina_r: yes, it needs an eye on it
12:21: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: I'm in favor of community moderation, just having content be rateable, hiding the things with bad ratings
12:21: <annew> and our current technical problem is not helping with that
12:22: <frankkarlitschek> irina_r: moderation could be necessary
12:22: <annew> _CitizenKane_: mostly, yes
12:22: <troubalex_> Nightrose: thanks.
12:22: <Nightrose> ;-)
12:22: <annew> some interaction with Talk pages is necessary
12:22: <annew> if we encourage people to ask question
12:23: <annew> someone has to be around to pick them up
12:23: <frankkarlitschek> kde has a few hundred developers and a few hundred thousand users. it would be great if we could involve the users too. somehow.
12:23: <annew> which leads to whether more info is needed on the main pages
12:23: <annew> frankkarlitschek: yes - still trying to work out the best way of getting to them
12:23: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: that would be, I think the KDE websites right now kind of leave users off to the side
12:23: <cornelius> annew: isn't for question a forum better?
12:23: <irina_r> should at least have links to stuff users want to know
12:24: <irina_r> (i.e. static content like manuals)
12:24: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: agreed. getting the community involved in the process will help ensure its long-term sustainability
12:24: <annew> cornelius: irina_r: not sure - we haven't been too successful in some areas, with those resources
12:24: <irina_r> why not?
12:24: <irina_r> (not a rhetorical question)
12:25: <annew> if you read MLs it's clear that users don't know where to find info
12:25: <annew> there has to be an easy starting place to help them find it
12:25: <irina_r> ah, that's a point we have to address, then
12:25: <rakekniven> when will the new forum be launched? Somebody mentioned that there will be a new one
12:25: <Socceroos_home> annew: i have to agree. when I first started with kde, finding help on topics or applications was very confusing
12:25: <annew> I've been using kde for 6 years and didn't know many of the places that exist
12:25: <cornelius> annew: I would see userbase as this place.
12:26: <annew> cornelius: I hope so
12:26: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: i think so too
12:26: <irina_r> I think I don't know many of the places that exist either
12:26: <rakekniven> me too. Userbase is good
12:26: <OhReally> new forum: copying the files right now; hoping to get the announcement out this weekend.
12:26: <cornelius> annew: and maybe specific application or subcommunity web pages as entry point linking to userbase.
12:26: <annew> links in both directions - yeah
12:26: <Socceroos_home> I personally feel that all these subdomains are really getting in the way more than they are being useful
12:26: <Melchiorre> OhReally: fantastic :)
12:27: <OhReally> :)
12:27: <rakekniven> Posted userbase link to german kde usenet group and many people started visiting userbase.
12:27 -!- BernhardRode [[email protected]] has joined #kde-www
12:27: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: just a matter of getting the information to all the users, and making sure it gets decent search results rankings
12:27: <Nightrose> OhReally: thx for the email - everything ready for launch?
12:27: <cornelius> annew: I wouldn't see much own content on a site like e.g. kontact.kde.org . this could just be a redirect to a kontact start page on userbase.
12:27: <annew> didn't think of usenet - I'll look into that
12:28: <annew> cornelius: some sites are doing that already
12:28: <annew> utils, I think
12:28: <Socceroos_home> OK - I reckon we can move on to point 2 in the Meeting outline, unless there is anything more to say?
12:28: <rakekniven> Just an example that many people are not aware of that new resource
12:28: <OhReally> Nightrose: as said: copying the files, dumping the db... should be done in 1 or 2 hours.
12:28: <Nightrose> nice
12:29: <annew> Socceroos_home: copyright is a headache
12:29: <annew> there's no notice on most pages, so we don't know what's allowed
12:29: <Socceroos_home> What do people think of slimming down the ammount of subdomains and consolidating much of the data into userbase and techbase?
12:29: <_CitizenKane_> what is the licensing on the content of the pages?
12:29: <annew> Socceroos_home: from a user POV I'm in favour
12:30 -!- pinheiro [[email protected]] has joined #kde-www
12:30: <irina_r> Socceroos_home: as long as people are redirected properly, in favour
12:30: <pinheiro> hey
12:30: <annew> _CitizenKane_: it's not always obvious
12:30: <Melchiorre> Socceroos_home: I totally agree with trying to centralise everything
12:30: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I'm in favor, ~40 subdomains is a lot
12:30: <rakekniven> Socceroos_home: I like it
12:30: <Socceroos_home> hello pinheiro
12:30: <pinheiro> sory im late
12:30: <frankkarlitschek> hi pinheiro
12:30: <irina_r> it's very frustrating to go somewhere and find it's dead and not to know where to go instead.
12:30: <evan_> hi all - I agree with Socceroos, consodlidate as much as possible
12:30: <Socceroos_home> irina_r: agreed
12:30: <annew> irina_r: +1
12:30: <_CitizenKane_> hi pinheiro
12:30: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: just don't put too much into the consolidated pages - less is more ;-)
12:31: <Nightrose> hey pinheiro :)
12:31: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: the subdomains help with that
12:31: <rakekniven> No page is better than outdated content.
12:31: <_CitizenKane_> Sounds like it might be worth establishing a license for all content that goes onto KDE websites
12:31: <pinheiro> just got back from bed had to take sebas to the airport and that was way to early
12:31: <pinheiro> :)
12:31: <pinheiro> _CitizenKane_: were images goes that might be complicated
12:32: <Melchiorre> I imagine using the same licence KDE is released under would be the best move...
12:32: <Melchiorre> (is it GPL 2?)
12:32: <pinheiro> itsl loads
12:32: <_CitizenKane_> pinheiro: isn't all the oxygen stuff under some creative commons license?
12:33: <pinheiro> _CitizenKane_: double
12:33: <pinheiro> lgpl and cc
12:33: <pinheiro> you chose
12:33: <Socceroos_home> Should we be mandating that everything be under an approved open source licence?
12:33: <pinheiro> dough not all the imagery i get is like that
12:33: <_CitizenKane_> ok, I think that would be reasonable for website content, assuming we could relicense all the old stuff, and I know there are some complicated issues
12:33: <irina_r> hmm, I don't know if we can mandate it, but we can always ask it
12:34: <pinheiro> geting stock photos under that type of licnce is totaly impossible
12:34: <evan_> relicensing would definitely help people feel more enthusiastic about helping maintain the sites and content
12:34: <cornelius> pinheiro: shouldn't we then avoid using these photos?
12:34: <pinheiro> and we used some
12:35: <Socceroos_home> Just thinking about the community and user added content, what kind of licence issues can anyone foresee we may have?
12:35: <cornelius> I think the content of our web sites should be as free as our software.
12:35: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: agreed
12:35: <pinheiro> cornelius: its the simplest way to get professional photos that have a messg to it
12:35: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: It almost seems like mandating it might be necessary, if KDE is maintaining the infrastructure, otherwise someone get set up their own space for it
12:35: <irina_r> yeah, concede
12:35: <cornelius> pinheiro: i realize that. but i think it's worth to do some extra effort to get a free website.
12:35: <pinheiro> actulay I would hevn like to have a buget to be able to buy that type of photos
12:36: <annma> what photos are you talking about?
12:36: <pinheiro> duno if you guys hve done that sort of work but its a real pain
12:36: <Socceroos_home> What about screencasts, demos, videos, photos that the community starts adding? What about the dynamic content we wish to have? Will we be drawing on data sources that may conflict with our licences?
12:36: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: Well, I could forsee people not liking the licensing of what they do
12:36: <pinheiro> and stock photos website are so much simpler
12:36: <_CitizenKane_> But I believe wikipedia does it
12:37: <pinheiro> than sorting them out on flicker and trusting that the licence they posted there is the real thing....
12:37: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: that's a good point, I really should look into the licensing for twitter, etc.
12:37: <cornelius> pinheiro: would it be possible and feasible to buy photos and then publishing under a free license?
12:37: <pinheiro> noooo
12:38: <pinheiro> i actually tried that several times
12:38: <pinheiro> the guys simply dont get it
12:38: <pinheiro> they were like shocked about the licence
12:38: <pinheiro> to the point of being rude
12:38 -!- Zarin [n=cr@kde/developer/lmurray] has joined #kde-www
12:38: <Melchiorre> jyay! 34 :)
12:39: <cornelius> pinheiro: seems like photographers still have a lot to learn...
12:39: <Zarin> Did I miss it?
12:39: * pinheiro have lot of experience on that
12:39: <Socceroos_home> I'm of the opinion that if we're going to involve the community in maintaining our sites (through dynamic content and the like) that we're going to run into copyright issues. So we either have to mandate licence compliance or have an effective process for quickly removing objectionable content.
12:39: <irina_r> only the first part of it but I'll post the log somewhere
12:39: <Melchiorre> Is this the kind of question we shoul dbe referring on to KDE e. V?
12:39: <Zarin> irina_r, :)
12:39: <irina_r> (I can promise Monday)
12:39: <pinheiro> cornelius: the typical way to get them is to say somthing like hey our exposure is about 25.000.000 desktops
12:39: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I'm sure we'll have to do both, because inevitably people will post copyrighted content
12:39: <Socceroos_home> Melchiorre: Good point.
12:40: <irina_r> their own copyright or someone else's?
12:40: <pinheiro> but only 1 out of each 10 get it
12:40: <annew> so how would we know if copyright content was included?
12:40: <Melchiorre> we wouldn't
12:40: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: for user contributed content we have to demand license compliance.
12:40: <pinheiro> you guys remember the ireland akademy images???
12:40: <Socceroos_home> Would clear warnings about licencing issues scare people away from adding content?
12:40: <irina_r> cornelius: good point
12:41: <pinheiro> those were stock photos
12:41: <cornelius> I think we need a very strict policy for this.
12:41: <frankkarlitschek> Socceroos_home: this is not a big problem. the user is responsible for the content he posts. we have to take the content down if we see a copyright violation of course. this is the same as svn commits, or wiki posts for example.
12:41: <cornelius> Probably something similar to what Wikipedia does. They know this stuff.
12:41: <pinheiro> yeap
12:41: <Socceroos_home> pinheiro: we're would have to rely on the community to flag copyrighted content.
12:41: <evan_> if there's an effective and fast method for removing objectionable content, then it shouldn't be a problem
12:41: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: I agree, we do need a strict policy, otherwise we could have content that 10 years down the road no one can use
12:41: <pinheiro> thats what w do any way
12:43: <annew> I'm in favour of copyright info being as obvious as possible - unmissable
12:43: <_CitizenKane_> Ok, I think now we can move onto number 2
12:43: <Socceroos_home> _CitizenKane_: Yep.
12:43: <Melchiorre> you mean 3
12:43: <rakekniven> 1.3
12:43: <irina_r> 1.3?
12:44: <_CitizenKane_> Melchiorre: I suppose 1 and 2 got a little bundled together
12:44: <Melchiorre> Does anyone know of an example of a website thats doing exactly what we want?
12:44: <rakekniven> good question?
12:45: <Socceroos_home> Also, for websites that *are* being well maintained, are they going to be less likely to want to follow our strategies of consolidating content in the xBases?
12:45: <annma> they are maintained by 1 person mainly Socceroos_home
12:46: <annma> edu is maintained by me, games by it-s
12:46: <Socceroos_home> ok
12:46: <annew> there needs to be an advantage to the maintainer, as well as to the user
12:46: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I think the only ones that may not want to change immediately may be Amarok and possibly digikam
12:46: <rakekniven> for some apps the xbases work perfect. for bigger apps like amarok it won't, maybe
12:46: <Nightrose> _CitizenKane_: not going to change for amarok
12:47: <Nightrose> we want our own website
12:47: <Nightrose> and maintain it very well imho
12:47: <Socceroos_home> _CitizenKane_: hopefully we can offer enough of a benefit for them to eventually want to switch, but i agree.
12:47: <neverendingo> Melchiorre: what about something like that: http://www.yongfook.com/
12:47: <cornelius> I think there is nothing wrong with keeping specific websites separate.
12:47: <_CitizenKane_> Nightrose: yep, I don't see any conflict there and leaving some of the bigger apps out isn't a problem
12:47: <rakekniven> ack
12:47: <Socceroos_home> Nightrose: thats interesting, that will be important when we go on to discuss open collaboration
12:47: <pinheiro> yes
12:47: <cornelius> we shold stay flexible here to be able to adjust to specific needs of specific groups.
12:48: <annew> If dynamic linking can be done that would work wonders
12:48: <irina_r> yes!
12:48: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: depends on what you need from us and where we need to work together
12:48: <Socceroos_home> dynamic linking?
12:48: <evan_> the important thing is that information is easy to find
12:48: <_CitizenKane_> neverendingo: that isn't bad, not exactly what I'd have in mine, but certainly close than what we have right now
12:48: <cornelius> but we should offer a solution for those sub sites which are not well maintained or where maintainers want to switch to another system.
12:49: <Nightrose> yea imho you really should start with the unmaintained sites and get them in a very good shape
12:49: <Nightrose> the rest can follow if needed and wanted
12:49: <Nightrose> the unmaintained sites are work enough for months at least
12:49: <Melchiorre> neverendingo: you mean the design and layout of that site, or the functionality?
12:49: <cornelius> Nightrose: agreed.
12:49: <neverendingo> _CitizenKane_: it's extensible and open source
12:49: <Socceroos_home> but, getting them in good shape, as we've discussed, may involve moving most content to userbase and techbase
12:49: <neverendingo> Melchiorre: the functionality
12:49: <rakekniven> Put content to xbases and redirect subdomains like mentioned before
12:49: <pinheiro> Nightrose: +1
12:50: <ungethym> xbase = userbase and techbase?
12:50: <_CitizenKane_> ungethym: yep
12:50: <rakekniven> yes
12:50: <annew> Socceroos_home: it's not easy to deal with content that is years out of date
12:50: <Socceroos_home> ungethym: yeah
12:50: <annew> you need to know the project
12:51: <ungethym> thx.
12:51: <_CitizenKane_> neverendingo: it's an idea certainly
12:51: <annew> to be able to virtually re-write it
12:51: <Nightrose> neverendingo: get in touch with troubalex_ about that
12:51: * troubalex_ waves to neverendingo
12:51: <Socceroos_home> annew: I know. So should we be trying to? or should we be retiring them?
12:51: <neverendingo> will try that out first on my own server, but it seems nice
12:52: <rakekniven> Do we really need to migrate years old content?
12:52: <troubalex_> neverendingo: I will meet the developper next week. any thought from your side is very welcome
12:52: <annew> rakekniven: if we don't we have to find someone able to write substitute info
12:52: <irina_r> rakekniven: depends whether it's still relevant
12:52: <neverendingo> troubalex_: ok, thx, will let you know
12:52: <annew> assuming that the project is still maintained
12:52: <Nightrose> troubalex_: neverendingo has another one it seems
12:53: <troubalex_> Nightrose: aha? which?
12:53: <Jucato> shouldn't we contact first the people involved with the project, give them a chance to reply, before we decide to take matters into our hands (whether it be ditch, upgrade, or migrate)?
12:53: <Jucato> s/project/website/
12:53: <Nightrose> troubalex_: http://www.yongfook.com/ seems to be powered by sweetcorn (whatever that is)
12:54: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: I agree
12:54: <troubalex_> Nightrose: just found the url... thx
12:54: <annew> Jucato: when you tell me that some project is unmaintained, how do you know that?
12:54: <irina_r> Jucato: +1
12:54: <Socceroos_home> We need to give devs ample time to give their thoughts on their particular website and then decide what to do with it after that
12:54: <irina_r> if it hasn't been updated since say 2005, can't we be pretty sure it's unmaintained?
12:54: <_CitizenKane_> Jucato: +1
12:54: <Jucato> annew: case to case basis. usually I play it by ear, if the app has been migrated to KDE 4
12:55: <Socceroos_home> annew: doesn't necessarily need to be a project, just their site
12:55: <annew> Socceroos_home: some of the devs listed on those pages don't seem to be around any more
12:55: <Jucato> then we contact the app's current maintainers (AUTHORS file usually)
12:55: <annew> Socceroos_home: I've been trying to get contact with some of those people without success, sometimes
12:55: <Socceroos_home> annew: yeah
12:56: <annew> so we need some sort of system to work out where we can contact folk and where we can't
12:56: <rakekniven> same here e.g. kookka
12:56: <Jucato> then we give them an ultimatum... reply... or your bases are belong to us!!
12:56: <rakekniven> kooka
12:56: <cornelius> for the stuff which is in svn, it's easy to find out how has worked on it by looking at the logs.
12:56: <Socceroos_home> annew: agreed
12:57: <annew> perhaps we can add wiki info somewhere about attempts to contact and result?
12:57: <Socceroos_home> while we can easily see that content is out of date, we should also contact the appropriate devs and see if they had any plans etc.
12:57: <Socceroos_home> annew: good idea
12:57: <Jucato> in techbase of course :)
12:57: <annew> just 'working on it' or 'no replies'
12:57: <Socceroos_home> we're going to have to do it one by one. there is no quick way to do this
12:57: <pinheiro> yeah
12:57: <annew> agreed
12:57: <Jucato> +1101
12:57: <annew> but if we add info as we handle it
12:57: <rakekniven> Is somebody writing a kind of resumee?
12:57: <annew> we won't be duplicating effort
12:57: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: we can split up the list and each take certain devs
12:58: <Socceroos_home> yep
12:58: <_CitizenKane_> rakekniven: I just started writing an overview
12:58: <rakekniven> 1+
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12:58: <Jucato> rakekniven: kooka has been "replaced" by skanlite btw (afaik)
12:58: <rakekniven> website is still listed
12:59: <pinheiro> _CitizenKane_: can you put it online so i can see what i missed, i know that this will menn work for me ;)
12:59: <Jucato> hm...
12:59: <annew> Jucato: how the * is a user supposed to know that?
12:59: <Jucato> annew: they're not. it's our job to make that info accessible :)
12:59: <annew> Jucato: but it's typical of what happens
12:59: * Jucato was just giving an fyi :)
12:59: <Socceroos_home> OK, so we should do this(?): Contact the devs/maintainers of each site and discuss their sites future, talk about its current state - offer to migrate it to XBases
12:59: <_CitizenKane_> pinheiro: I'll blog about it
12:59: <annew> and the info doesn't get around
12:59: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: sounds good
12:59: <Jucato> annew: right. that's why I was personally obssessed with the App Catalogue in UserBase :)
13:00: <Socceroos_home> ok
13:00: <Socceroos_home> NEXT POINT :D
13:00: <Jucato> which point?
13:00: <rakekniven> 2
13:00: <Jucato> What obstacles are there that would make improving KDE websites difficult? <--- ?
13:00: <annew> obstacles?
13:01: <Socceroos_home> We have touched on point 2 in some ways
13:01: <Melchiorre> I think it'd be better to set up the new site and have a base running before we start contacting anyone...
13:01: <Socceroos_home> but basically....
13:01: <rakekniven> userbase is already there
13:01: <rakekniven> ... and growing
13:01: <irina_r> but do users know of it?
13:01: <Jucato> irina_r: we're doing our best to advertise it :)
13:01: <rakekniven> No, I mentioned this on kde-www ml this week
13:01: <Jucato> rakekniven: it's not exactly for app web pages though
13:02: <annew> irina_r: not enough yet
13:02: <irina_r> I only knew of it because I follow the planet and stuff like that
13:02: <Jucato> well it was announced on the Dot
13:02: <annew> rakekniven: we link to app web pages and
13:02: <annew> if pages get migrated to userbase the links just need changing
13:02: <ungethym> is the desicion made to use techbase and userbase?
13:02: <Jucato> um...
13:03: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: if we redirect everything it should so up in search engines
13:03: <Socceroos_home> We've talked about point 2 well enough. We have decided that all this scattered content is impossible - consolidate. Contact unmaintained site owners and discuss future
13:03: <rakekniven> Why not having subpages for each app where the author/team can put all content he want?
13:03: <_CitizenKane_> ungethym: at least as far as app information, I believe it's a yes
13:03: <Jucato> let's just make it clear. UserBase is for user-relevant information. that's our focus.
13:04: <Jucato> rakekniven: see ^^^
13:04: <ungethym> because I would prefer (at the moment) one site for one app.
13:04: <Socceroos_home> and techbase?
13:04: <Jucato> KDE development
13:04: <annma> technical stuff
13:04: <Socceroos_home> cant most information be split between the two and still be relevant?
13:04: <Jucato> KDE or app development
13:04: <annew> ungethym: if devs want that, then we just link. easy
13:04: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: they can *if* they're willing
13:04: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I think that is probably what most of the app pages are like right now
13:04: <Jucato> (which is what I mentioned much much earlier)
13:05: <ungethym> because I'm not shure there is a clear difference between user and developer in the field of open source.
13:05: <annew> users got scared off from techbase - we don't want them scared away from userbase :-)
13:05: <Jucato> ungethym: there is. end-users don't usually KDE from trunk for development :)
13:05: <annma> ungethym: it's pretty clear
13:05: <cornelius> ungethym: but there is a difference between user and developer content.
13:05: <irina_r> all developers are users but not all users are/want to be developers
13:05: <annew> and those that do can read both
13:06: <ungethym> ok. convinced.
13:06: <Socceroos_home> so what are most subdomain sites now? User or developer?
13:06: <annma> user
13:06: <rakekniven> So, discussing the future is not easy if we are not sure were to put the content of old sites
13:06: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: depends. sometimes both
13:06: <annma> games and edu are user content
13:07: <Jucato> annma: except you have a section called "Develop" :)
13:07: <_CitizenKane_> Seems to be an almost even split
13:07: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: usually, the subdomains or app websites contain both user and developer information.
13:07: <cuco> i would like to raise the issue of international sites. we have ~10 sites. what we expect from from those international sites?
13:07: <irina_r> user and dev sections seems a good idea
13:08: <annma> Jucato: that's very tiny anyway and techbase bitched me for Edu
13:08: <Socceroos_home> cuco: hopefully a CMS will allow for easier translation of content
13:08: <ungethym> irina_r: in one site?
13:08: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: seems like we could put user information on userbase, and then have the developer section their link to techbase
13:08: <rakekniven> My vote for this 1+
13:09: <_CitizenKane_> * developer section there, it's way too early
13:09: <rakekniven> the last 5 years we translated ~1000 news articles to german
13:09: <Melchiorre> _CitizenKane_: +1
13:09: <Socceroos_home> _CitizenKane_: yeah, i think we need to encourage moving towards using xbases for most content that is 'Learning' related
13:09: <irina_r> ungethym: what _CitizenKane_ said
13:09: <cuco> Socceroos_home: so you expect a 1:1 translation? what happens when the local site needs something more... localized? (happy local hollyday or such)
13:09: <rakekniven> It is a pain in the ass using svn + dot + php for this
13:09: <annew> _CitizenKane_: +1 - but I have heard of folk being told that their content was not technical enough for techbase
13:09: <annma> I think localized sites taht are maintained and want to stay can stay cuco
13:10: <Jucato> I vote for creating midbase.kde.org :D
13:10: <annew> cuco: room for both, I think
13:10: <_CitizenKane_> annew: if that's the case we may just have to expand what is technical enough
13:10: <rakekniven> hahaha
13:10: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: hahaha
13:10: <_CitizenKane_> hahaha
13:10: <Melchiorre> hahaha?
13:10: <Socceroos_home> Mabey we need guidelines for 'technical' and 'user'?
13:10: <_CitizenKane_> Jucato: I believe it's poweruser.kde.org
13:10: <_CitizenKane_> ;)
13:10: <rakekniven> Even better :-)
13:10: <Jucato> _CitizenKane_: PowerBase
13:10: <Jucato> follow the pattern!!
13:11: <Jucato> :P
13:11: <cuco> annma annew that still does not answer my original question, what content should i put on my localized site? shuold it mirror exactly whats on the "main site"? more or less? do i have complete freedom?
13:11: <annew> Socceroos_home: if it involved compiling it's not for the general user :-)
13:11: <annma> you have freedom cuco
13:11: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: I think the distinction *should* be simple: TechBase for *development*, UserBase for usage
13:11: <irina_r> annew: exactly!
13:11: <Jucato> annew: I would somewhat disagree...
13:11: <annew> cuco: I would suggest that you get the main info translated but have freedom to do anything suitable local-wise
13:12: <irina_r> but the general user of X can be a poweruser of Y and developer of Z
13:12: <Jucato> that would categorize a lot of themes in kde-look as "for techbase" only :)
13:12: <evan_> there is always going to be a grey area between users and developers
13:12: <rakekniven> international sites should be able to use translated content from kde.org/dot and add own country specific content
13:12: <Jucato> "compiling" != "development"
13:13: <Jucato> "powerusers" are still "users"... doesn't exactly make them developers/contributors automatically
13:13: <annew> Jucato: true - so where does such info go? In Tutorials?
13:13: <evan_> trying to specify too much seems to result in subdomains... :P
13:13: <Jucato> annew: Tutorials or Troubleshooting, depending on the content
13:13: <irina_r> if it's for normal users (i.e. automatically excluding everybody here at the moment) it needs to be clear that you don't have to be a techie to be a user
13:13: * annew worries that powerusers get lost between the two
13:13: <_CitizenKane_> annew: I think we'll just need a power users section of userbase
13:13: <irina_r> I know lots of people who still thik everything linux is only for techies
13:13: <Jucato> hence Power/MidBase
13:13: <Melchiorre> cuco: one of the plans for the website makeover was to have multi-lingual capabilities built in, which would hopefully do away with the need for you to maintain a separate "mirror" of the website. instead you could just have a website for regional specific stuff...
13:13: <Socceroos_home> Something like howtoforge?
13:13: <Jucato> _CitizenKane_: sure :)
13:14: <annew> _CitizenKane_: ok - we just talk out how to achieve it. I'm generally in favour
13:14: <Jucato> we're hoping the Tutorials section would expand to rival TLDP
13:14: <Jucato> >:)
13:14: <irina_r> ideally my 13-year-olds should be able to get around on userbase
13:14: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: that would be cool
13:13: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: +110
13:13: <Jucato> (that would be.. +6.. hm..)
13:13: <Socceroos_home> OK - POINT 3 - Changing to a CMS system :)
13:13: <annew> I'd still like skill ratings, something like O'Reilley's * Hacks series
13:13: <irina_r> ooh yes!
13:16: <Socceroos_home> Do people think that changing to a CMS is a good idea?
13:16: <Jucato> annew: that could be implemented.. I hope there are extensions :)
13:16: <rakekniven> Yes!
13:16: <evan_> yep
13:16: <ungethym> CMS +1
13:16: <cornelius> for what do we need the cms?
13:16: <cuco> CMS+1
13:16: <Jucato> sure! but I'm thinking about how some people like to integrate the site with SVN
13:16: <Jucato> cornelius:
13:16: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: easy content management
13:16: <Jucato> er..
13:17: <Jucato> cornelius: much easier to create content
13:17: <Jucato> (and manage)
13:17: <cuco> we need it, since this is the only way content editors can modify the site without having a local apache installation and thus lowering the entry point for maintaining the site
13:17: <cornelius> didn't we just talk about moving content to techbase and userbase? So the cms is already taken care of.
13:17: <Socceroos_home> no need for svn or HTML PHP knowledge
13:17: <Jucato> cornelius: not everything
13:17: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: well for the main kde.org a CMS would make a lot of sense
13:18: <Socceroos_home> Using a CMS is a big step to making it accessible for the general community to help contribute information
13:18: <cornelius> I think before we talk about CMS we have to talk about what content we want to provide.
13:18: <Jucato> and not every type of content is suited for a wiki
13:18: <cornelius> the wikis work very fine for community contributed content.
13:18: <ungethym> CMS for the main-site (with feed-integration) and a Wiki and Forum for Userbase
13:18: <rakekniven> Getting rid of svn + php + html . Having roles and many more people contributing content (as draft maybe).
13:19: <cornelius> what kind of content are you thinking of?
13:19: <ungethym> cornelius: only a wiki?
13:19: <cornelius> the main kde site has only very little content which is changed regularly?
13:19: <rakekniven> user news
13:19: <Socceroos_home> Articles, news, feeds
13:19: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: static style pages, news posts, blogs, tweets
13:19: <Socceroos_home> dynamic content
13:20: <_CitizenKane_> translated content I think would be big, getting translated news through svn I imagine wouldn't be too easy
13:20: <cornelius> ok, dynamic content is a point. but that is maintained elsewhere anyway.
13:20: <Jucato> content you don't want to be editable, content you don't want to be visible ASAP except to a few
13:20: <Socceroos_home> moderation of contributed content
13:20: <Jucato> didn't I just say that? O.o
13:21: <Jucato> (ok in less technical terms...)
13:21: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: yeach, i'm slow
13:21: <Socceroos_home> :D
13:21: <Jucato> :P
13:21: <cornelius> Jucato: I think we should minimize the parts which are not editable.
13:21: <cornelius> Jucato: and what should not be visible?
13:21: <Jucato> cornelius: [21:18] <Socceroos_home> moderation of contributed content
13:21: <cornelius> Jucato: why whould we do that?
13:21: <Jucato> or some "pending" content
13:21: <Jucato> like release announcements, etc
13:22: <Socceroos_home> well, because if the community starts 'contributing' porn to our front page we want to be able to stop it.
13:22: <Jucato> cornelius: for example, in a wiki, anyone could edit or put stuff, and we can only react after the fact
13:22: <irina_r> why we would moderate? because every wiki has its contingent of kooks and spammers
13:22: <cornelius> ok, announcments are a good point. this is taken care of by the dot.
13:22: <Jucato> like someone put in a few pages "KDE needs a forum!"
13:22: <Socceroos_home> wiki is different to main site
13:23: <_CitizenKane_> and a with a wiki uploading video, images, etc. would be difficult
13:23: <Jucato> cornelius: the dot only announces or writes up, but the full release announcements and details are still on the website
13:23: <_CitizenKane_> also, a CMS can provide web services for application to interact with
13:23: <Jucato> a wiki is also not conducive for comments/discussion in threaded style
13:23: <ruphy> yo
13:23: <ruphy> sorry, I'm late
13:24: <ruphy> very late
13:24: <cornelius> moderating content makes it hard again to contribute. wikipedia shows that it works without that.
13:24: <Socceroos_home> Cornelius: Not using a CMS system means that we need to be using either a Wiki type system or have our own custom setup -- We all know how thats turned out
13:24: <ruphy> but couldn't do otherwise - just back from school :\
13:24: <rakekniven> It would be good to have announce on cms/wiki as well. Ask sebas or me
13:24: <rakekniven> announcements
13:24: <annew> AIUI wikipedia is not totally unmoderated
13:24: <Socceroos_home> wikipedia has many many reviewers
13:25: <ungethym> sorry, I have to leave. irina_r: did you say you would publish the logs?
13:25: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: I don't say that we don't need a CMS. I only say that we have to have a clear idea what to put there.
13:25: <Socceroos_home> everyone is crosschecking information on wikipedia - we don't have the manpower to emulate that
13:25: <Melchiorre> ruphy: we're still going strong. Up to point 3: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/kde.org/Meetings/September08
13:25: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: not necessarily moderating content up front, but after posting, or having the community do most of the moderation
13:25: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: the whole point of this exercise is to get an active community behind the KDE web sites.
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13:26: <irina_r> ungethym: yes, by monday
13:26: <_CitizenKane_> cornelius: CMS would be great for having a KDE social network, allowing people to interact, find each other
13:26: <frankkarlitschek> reviewing afterwards is the only way we can do. moderating every posting of every user is killing us, the user motivation or both. at least this is my experience with kde-look
13:26: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: agreed. that is equally possible with a CMS.
13:26: <ungethym> irina_r: excellent! Where could I get it?
13:26: <irina_r> ungethym: on my own site but I'll post a link here
13:27: <irina_r> or check www.valdyas.org/irina/stuff/ because that's wher it will be
13:27: <Socceroos_home> Plus a cms gives us the flexibility of creating module to give us good features
13:27: <cornelius> _CitizenKane_: this needs specific functionality. this is much more than just "CMS".
13:27: <rakekniven> This meeting here takes more time than expected. Please count me as an volunteer for:CMS and xBases, Contacting/migrating subdomains or other tasksI am against staying with svn/php for www after years doing that.I will check for resumee later, sorry.
13:27: <Jucato> hm.. wait wait... are we even inviting anyone and everyone to submit content to the site(s) in the first place?
13:28: <ungethym> irina_r: thanks.
13:28: <Jucato> (aside possibly for comments or discussion with users)
13:28: <cornelius> Jucato: that's what we do with xbase, right? and it seems to work.
13:28: <rakekniven> Why not? We need policies and reviewers ( I volunteer again).
13:28: <Jucato> cornelius: but the purpose of xbase is "collaborative writing".. will all other websites be such?
13:29: <cornelius> Jucato: I think we have to review the sites one by one and see, what the specific needs are.
13:29: <cornelius> Jucato: most of them will be handled fine by migrating the content to xbase, I think.
13:29: <cornelius> Jucato: and the remaining ones are mostly specific implementations anyway.
13:30: <Jucato> for example, would edu and games be taking in content from users? or do they just need a site they can easily maintain?
13:30: <Socceroos_home> But there needs to be a landing pad for users
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13:30: <annew> that's userbase's job
13:30: <Socceroos_home> a landing pad that isn't a static wiki page
13:30: <Socceroos_home> Sorry, i mean KDE
13:30: <Socceroos_home> kde's main site*
13:30: <irina_r> could we get developers to put a link to userbase in their About boxes?
13:31: <cornelius> irina_r: that's an excellent idea.
13:31: <Jucato> irina_r: frinring (kdeutils) already wanted to do so iirc
13:31: <Socceroos_home> when people think 'kde' they wont automatically go to userbase. so we will need a landing pad for everyone. and i recon it would be better that this is dynamic
13:31: <_CitizenKane_> annew: functionality wise here we aren't necessarily talking about finding app info, it might be finding other users
13:31: <irina_r> kde.org seems the place where people would go, yes
13:31: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: In the end we could just have one single static page at www.kde.org which has a little bit of content and then links to more specific sites.
13:32: <annew> _CitizenKane_: unerstood - point 4.3
13:32: <BernhardRode> why not have a extra menu button "Online help" which automatically opens userbase at a specific page?
13:32: <irina_r> er, rather like the way it is now?
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13:32: <Socceroos_home> cornelus: true. but as discussed earlier, don't we want some dynamic content on the front page to keep it fresh?
13:32: <irina_r> BernhardRode: yes!
13:33: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: hm.. there already is.. at the bottom...
13:33: <Jucato> Latest News, Latest Applications... we probably need Planet too
13:33: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: I'd be in favor of that
13:33: <_CitizenKane_> it's a bit buried right now
13:34: <Jucato> well, it's way way under :)
13:35: * Jucato listens to the crickets...
13:35: <Socceroos_home> OK, so would we see any benefits in using a CMS to help serve content?
13:35: <Socceroos_home> I think a CMS would make it easy to add complex features in the future.
13:36: <_CitizenKane_> and make it easier for content translation, fix misspellings, etc.
13:36: <Jucato> the present "presentation" of www.kde.org (and its sub pages) is already ok.. imho the problem is that maintenance has to be done through SVN
13:37: <cornelius> Jucato: I don't think that SVN is the problem. The content on www.kde.org itself is hard to write, that's the main problem.
13:37: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: I think the look is a little dated. I totally agree that its way too hard to maintain it through svn though.
13:37: <frankkarlitschek> is this really the problem? how many people woant to maintain the content and are not willing to learn svn?
13:37: <ruphy> thanks Melchiorre
13:37: <_CitizenKane_> I imagine some pinheiro has some ideas to liven the look up
13:37: <cornelius> Jucato: you don't change the "What is KDE?" content all the time.
13:37: <Jucato> cornelius: hm... but if content is already hard to write... won't it be an additional burden to get it through svn?
13:38: <cornelius> Jucato: you don't have to. There are plently of people who have no problem with committing the content to SVN.
13:39: <cornelius> Jucato: I would happily volunteer to commit content in whatever format it is.
13:39: <Socceroos_home> but they need an account, which needs to be created/approved by someone else, after you've learnt svn. Its also another step you have to take before you can 'see' your content
13:39: <frankkarlitschek> i think it is more important for kde.org to have fresh and interesting content every day. a cms doesn't solve this.
13:40: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: it doesn't but it makes it easier for more people
13:40: <Jucato> ok... then maybe we can first try to establish 1. What content is needed 2. Who will be writing the content and 3. Who will be maintaining the site
13:40: <annew> frankkarlitschek: removing obstacles helps
13:40: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: I agree that this is a problem for the more specific sites. but not for www.kde.org.
13:40: <lemma> it also separates the process of providing cms modules from the process of providing content.. as well as separating content and looks
13:40: <Socceroos_home> I agree that a CMS doesn't specifically solve it, but it does lower the level of difficulty for a number of things
13:41: <BernhardRode> I think there are many ways to make interesting content.
http://laconi.ca/trac/ for example which is a free microblogging tool.
13:41: <Jucato> oh and 4. to whom does this apply? :)
13:41: <BernhardRode> or massive usage of rss
13:41: <cornelius> Socceroos_home: a CMS also introduces new barriers and problems. We have to make sure that it's worth it.
13:41: * Nightrose would have fixed a few minor issues here and there already if she had a svn commit bit for the www sites
13:41: <Nightrose> but it is harder than necessary to get that
13:41: <cornelius> The only way I see, is to become clear about what concrete content we want to put there.
13:41: <Socceroos_home> Basically, we mostly want www.kde.org to maintain itsself right?
13:41: <Nightrose> and then you need to get a chekcout
13:42: <Nightrose> with a CMS this would be _a lot_ easier
13:42: <Jucato> Nightrose: you can request it :)
13:42 -!- mdik [[email protected]] has joined #kde-www
13:42: <Socceroos_home> mostly dynamic content with a little static
13:42: <Nightrose> i know
13:42: <Jucato> or tell me so I can make use of my bits :)
13:42: <Nightrose> but the issues were always minor
13:42: <Nightrose> so i didn't bother
13:42: <Nightrose> i have other stuff to do
13:42: <Jucato> hehe :P
13:42: <Nightrose> if it was just opening a website and editing it i would have done it
13:42: <Mek> with a cms you still will have to request access...
13:43: <Nightrose> Mek: true - but all the other obstacles are gone
13:43: <Socceroos_home> Nightrose: +1
13:43: <Nightrose> and I don't need an svn account and then on top of that the commit bit
13:43: <cornelius> Nightrose: some people just send this minor issues to the www mailing list, and most often there is somebody who commits them.
13:43: <Nightrose> cornelius: i know
13:43: <Nightrose> <- is lacy :P
13:43: <Socceroos_home> cornelius: isn't that proof that less people are willing to do it that way?
13:44: <annew> most people are busy with other things, so it needs to be simple
13:44: <Socceroos_home> I recon if we can make it as accessible as possible then it will make maintaining it a whole lot easier.
13:44: <Nightrose> right
13:44: <Socceroos_home> annew: +1
13:44: <frankkarlitschek> i agree that it is easier for "editors" to maintain static webpages with a cms
13:44: <cornelius> I just want to remind you that some of the worst maintained subsites are actually running a CMS.
13:44: <Jucato> hm.. ok... would this be a valid reason to switch even www.kde.org to CMS? "to make it easy to extend the site's features and functionality, without having to go through a lot of coding"
13:44: <frankkarlitschek> but i don'tlike the idea of hundreds of static pages on *.kde.org
13:44: <cornelius> It's not a silver bullet.
13:45: <Nightrose> amarok.kde.org <- well maintained and using a cms ;-)
13:45: <irina_r> there's also the psychological barrier, I might want to fix typos and stuff but don't want to have something that feels like a full developer's account to do that
13:45: <Nightrose> but agreed - it is not a pink poy
13:45: <Nightrose> * pony
13:45: <annew> irina_r: +1
13:45: <irina_r> quite apart from whether it's a lot of work
13:45: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: what would be the alternative then?
13:45: <Jucato> pink boy.. hm.
13:45: <Nightrose> :P
13:45: <cornelius> Nightrose: yes, and that's because the Amarok community has a clear idea what they want to put on their site.
13:45: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: +1
13:45: <Nightrose> true
13:45: <frankkarlitschek> can't we discuss what we want on www.kde.org first. and discuss the right tool for the task later?
13:46: <ruphy> do we simply want to use git so you don't need push access to the central repo? :-P
13:46: <Jucato> frankkarlitschek: that was my point #1 :)
13:46: <Nightrose> ruphy: git is even worse - sorry ;-)
13:46: <Jucato> ruphy: this is not a git vs hg vs svn debate!!! :)
13:46: <Nightrose> hehe
13:46: <annew> I'd like to hear frankkarlitschek's ideas of how we can get dynamic content working
13:46: <Socceroos_home> OK - so we need to nut out what we want on www.kde.org *first*
13:47: <Nightrose> anyway_ the point is: a lot more people are willing to learn how to use a CMS than SVN
13:47: <Nightrose> imho
13:47: <Socceroos_home> nightrose: can't argue with that
13:47: <ruphy> Nightrose: not if it has a cool webinterface for it, that allows editing files on the web, like a wiki :P
13:47: <frankkarlitschek> i think kde a a huge great work wide community. but kde.org looks like the website of an old and boring company
13:47: <Socceroos_home> wiki front page? thats more static than ever.
13:47: <ruphy> eheheh
13:47: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek++
13:47: <Nightrose> ruphy: hehe ok true
13:48: <Jucato> so let's whip the artists to create a refreshing cover! :)
13:48: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos: announcments and synicated stuff from the Dot right on top, user and developer blogs, maybe an ajax powered commit log so it updates, that's kind of technical but it would be cool
13:48: <frankkarlitschek> why not show our users and our developers, blog posts, new applications, knowledgebase, fotos, .. on kde.org
13:48: <Jucato> (actually the front page looks more CMS than anything...)
13:48: <Jucato> and more icons!
13:48: <irina_r> yes, it does!
13:49: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: +1
13:49: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: +1
13:49: <Jucato> (seriously.. aside from the "Don't Look Back".. even techbase looks more "dyanmic"...)
13:49: <Nightrose> imho the entry page should be simple and have a wow effect
13:49: <annew> frankkarlitschek: tell us more about how it works
13:49: <Nightrose> not putting everything there we have is the key
13:49: <irina_r> look inviting, make people want to follow links
13:49: <Nightrose> i like frankkarlitschek's idea though - just don't overdo it
13:49: <troubalex> frankkarlitschek: that's why I was looking into this noserub thingie.
13:50: <frankkarlitschek> Nightrose: true. but we can impress with our community. not with a website design :-)
13:50: <Jucato> I think what frankkarlitschek is getting at is what is usually called a "portal" :)
13:50: <Nightrose> frankkarlitschek: we can do both ;-)
13:50: <Jucato> frankkarlitschek: that's still an important part of the impression :)
13:50: <annew> Jucato: most portals are horrible
13:50: <Nightrose> frankkarlitschek: let me get you an example
13:50: <Jucato> for some, it may actually be the first impression of the community they will get
13:50: <Jucato> annew: well... :)
13:51: <annew> Jucato: well the ones I've seen are :-)
13:51: <Nightrose> http://www.opensuse.org/en/ <- i think this is extremely well done for a starting page
13:51: <Melchiorre> _CitizenKane_: ajaxx powered updating is pretty easy - I can set that up without much pain.
13:51: <BernhardRode> irina_r: ... + make them come back
13:51: <Nightrose> add a touch of community and voila
13:51: <Nightrose> frankkarlitschek: ^
13:51: <irina_r> annew: agree completely, I hate standard portal sited
13:51: <irina_r> sites
13:51: <Jucato> Nightrose: wow that's new! I like it :)
13:51: <Nightrose> :)
13:51: <Jucato> much better than the previous one
13:51: <Nightrose> jep
13:51: <annew> I hate it
13:51: * Jucato drools
13:51: <_CitizenKane_> Melchiorre: ya, just a little bit of JS fanciness, spice it up a bit
13:51: <Nightrose> hehe
13:51: <ruphy> Nightrose: I support that
13:51: <_CitizenKane_> nothing too overwhelming
13:51: <Jucato> annew: the site, not the distro :P
13:52: <frankkarlitschek> Nightrose: the opensuse site has a great design. but where are our users? where are our developers? tips and tricks
13:52: <annew> yup
13:52: <Nightrose> :P
13:52: <Nightrose> frankkarlitschek: that is the point - add a little community to it
13:52: <irina_r> takes ages to load but that may just be my connection
13:52: <Nightrose> just don't overdo it
13:52: <ruphy> Nightrose: kde.org should be *homepage*, simple and slick. with links to the *.kde.org umbrella, but not directly on the first page
13:52: <Nightrose> *nod*
13:52: <Jucato> like what it is now? lots and lots and lots of links at the side :)
13:53: <irina_r> ah, opensuse is here
13:53: <irina_r> horrible font for headings!
13:53: <_CitizenKane_> Jucato: well hopefully not ;)
13:53: <Nightrose> irina_r: hehe that is details - i was just talking about the conzept
13:54: <Nightrose> and i know aseigo likes it a lot as well
13:54: <Jucato> ok we moved from "what content" to "what design" :)
13:54: <annew> Nightrose: content or not, anything so ugly turns me off
13:54: <Melchiorre> irina_r: agree about the headings, but at least they're different :)
13:54: <Jucato> (sorry, I like it.. :P)
13:54: <Socceroos_home> I think frank has a good point. We need to show how vibrant our community is - it needs to be exciting and inviting. Inviting also means a nice look
13:54: <Jucato> well not the fonts
13:54: <irina_r> I don't hate it but would do it differnently
13:54: <ruphy> design!
13:54: <ruphy> design!
13:54: <ruphy> yeah
13:54: <Nightrose> annew: i am sure the oxygen team can make it look a lot more beautiful
13:54: <ruphy> :D
13:54: <irina_r> (can't say how though)
13:54: <cornelius> I think the great thing about the opensuse page is that it gives a clear entry point for the different target audiences.
13:54: <Jucato> Nightrose: they better!!
13:54: <BernhardRode> i think the dojo community does a great job in connecting users - techies - daus
13:54: <BernhardRode> http://dojotoolkit.org/
13:54: <ruphy> that 'yeah' is actually a quassel bug
13:55: * ruphy is happy to show to the world his spammer skills :P
13:55: <Nightrose> *g*
13:55: <irina_r> you have bugs that actually say something sensible?
13:55: <ruphy> hmmm
13:55: <Jucato> cornelius: it immediately shows what the user would want to know or to go to
13:55: <ruphy> eyeos
13:55: <ruphy> that's a good site
13:55: <BernhardRode> the homepage has a clear structure and new content from different sources
13:56: <ruphy> http://eyeos.org/en/
13:56: <irina_r> cornelius: yes, it does
13:56: <_CitizenKane_> BernhardRode: +1 on that, looks like a good model to follow
13:56: <Jucato> ruphy: would be better if they used oxygen icons :)
13:56: <ruphy> can be made better, but...
13:56: <ruphy> Jucato: actually - they do
13:56: <ruphy> a slightly modified oxygen
13:56: <Jucato> right :)
13:57: <Jucato> wow I think first non-KDE site using oxygen :)
13:57: <Jucato> (ha! take that tango!!)
13:57: <ruphy> (and they also told us that they were sending us the modified SVGs, which they never did... )
13:57: <Jucato> first I saw
13:57: <Jucato> anyway...
13:57: <Socceroos_home> ok
13:57: <annew> so where does this get us?
13:58: <Jucato> it gets us sidetracked :)
13:58: <annew> what do we want to see on our front page?
13:58: <Socceroos_home> so, we want to marry the community to the main kde.org website and show it in all its glory, but remember to not overwhelm the visitor with information
13:58: <Socceroos_home> 1) news
13:58: <ruphy> wait - what's the target audience for www.kde.org. did we define that?
13:58: <Jucato> well, my suggestion is that the top of the page should be the most eye-catching and have the most essential information about KDE
13:58: <ruphy> random enthusiast, business?
13:59: <Jucato> I forgot what it's called in journalism/newspapers...
13:59: <Melchiorre> ruphy: IMHO all of the above
13:59: <ruphy> non-floss user looking for "what the heck is KDE?"
13:59: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: everyone who would use KDE, it would be a landing page
13:59: <Socceroos_home> ruphy: landing pad for all targets......kind of like dojo site?
13:59 -!- ShashankSingh [[email protected]] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
13:59: <Melchiorre> more like the opensuse site
13:59: <Jucato> everyone who would use and uses KDE.... it's a "home" page :)
13:59: <annew> sorry folks - the majority of 'users' never get to the kde pages
13:59: <Melchiorre> something for everyone :)
14:00: <Melchiorre> annew: is that because they're so outdated that no one bothers?
14:00: <Jucato> annew: hopefully this will get them drooling for it :)
14:00: <Socceroos_home> annew: i think its current state and purpose may have something to do with that
14:00: <Nightrose> annew: they are still target audience
14:00: <cornelius> annew: that's true, but they also don't get to other pages. And the majority of visitors of www.kde.org are users.
14:00: <mdik> sebas mentioned that discover.kde.org was meant for the average new user
14:00: <annew> I don't really think that it's a content issue -
14:01: <Jucato> and Konqueror now defaults to www.kde.org when you click on the Home button in the toolbar
14:01: <ruphy> http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/
14:01: <annew> a marketing issue, perhaps?
14:01: <ruphy> that's another very good website
14:01: <Jucato> annew: it's all issues
14:01: <Jucato> content, design, marketing
14:01: <Nightrose> annew: some of them never *need* to
14:01: <annew> the first place they look is distro-related
14:01: <Nightrose> but those who need it should find what they want
14:01: <irina_r> Jucato: hey, I didn't know that! (but then I hardly ever click on the Home button)
14:01: <Socceroos_home> these sites are using cms's :P
14:01: <ruphy> cornelius: ok, users. but they want to do WHAT?
14:01: <ruphy> what are they looking for?
14:01: <ruphy> links to download KDE?
14:01: <Jucato> irina_r: I discovered it by mistake
14:01: <annew> and the distro MLs/forums don't point them to kde.org
14:01: <Jucato> oh stop that Socceroos_home! :)
14:01: <ruphy> documents like the CoC?
14:02: <ruphy> buttons?
14:02: <ruphy> (buttons --> merchandise, icons...)
14:02: <cornelius> I don't think we can define a specific target audience for www.kde.org. That's our central page. Google goes there. Everybody goes there.
14:02: <Jucato> annew: that distro's do that is actually not our fault, is it? and there is little we can do directly to change that
14:02: <irina_r> documentation, howtos
14:02: <ruphy> they want to discover "what is kde"?
14:02: <irina_r> howtos
14:02: <Jucato> annew: that doesn't mean we have to care less about that front page
14:02: <annew> Jucato: we have to - we have to sell it to them
14:03: <cornelius> the job of the page is to direct visitors to the pages for more specfic audiences.
14:03: <Jucato> exactly!!
14:03: <irina_r> the About KDE section is a very mixed bag.
14:03: <ruphy> cornelius: do we have some data of the kde.org usage and direction of the traffic?
14:03: <Jucato> and making it alive is part of that :)
14:03: <annew> alive, yes, but
14:03: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: I think this may be going on a completely subject, and would be good for another meeting
14:03: <Nightrose> ruphy: yes - ask dirk or sebas
14:03: <ruphy> Nightrose: ok, thanks
14:03: <annew> I'm with ruphy about defining why people come there in the first place
14:03: <Jucato> and we're only on #2 iirc? :)
14:04: <_CitizenKane_> it sounds like the consensus is that it should be redesigned somehow ;)
14:04: <pinheiro> m2
14:04: <ruphy> we need to define "what the user is looking for when gets on our homepage" before designing what would be the most prominent links
14:04: <Jucato> well I agree with cornelius and frankkarlitschek : <cornelius> the job of the page is to direct visitors to the pages for more specfic audiences.
14:04: <pinheiro> yes
14:04: <ruphy> Jucato: sure, that doesn't mean much anyways ;-)
14:04: <Socceroos_home> Jucato: agreed
14:04: <ruphy> I think we all agree on that
14:04: <pinheiro> exactly
14:04: <ruphy> the point is
14:04: <Jucato> where?
14:04: <cornelius> we define who we want to attract to which site. and www.kde.org should be the central hub.
14:04: <Jucato> :)
14:05: <ruphy> what *are* the areas that are most interesting
14:05: <Jucato> where to I mean
14:05: <ruphy> the areas that are mostly looked for
14:05: <Nightrose> ruphy: what is kde/where can i get it/why is it cool
14:05: <Nightrose> not necessarily in that order
14:05: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: we'll figure that out, and then we can do the site design based on this
14:06: <Jucato> well, imho users would be looking for: 1. What is KDE? 2. Where/How do I get it? 3. Latest News 4. Where to go now?
14:06: <Nightrose> ruphy: and then news and other stuff
14:06: <ruphy> Nightrose: cool, that gives us a great starting point
14:06: <Jucato> with "Where to go now?" branching off to more places
14:06: <ruphy> so I'd say
14:06: <ruphy> in a cronological order
14:06: <annew> Jucato: most users get it only from their distro
14:06: <irina_r> wouldn't it attract lots of people who already use KDE
14:06: <ruphy> "What is KDE", "Take a tour", "How to get it"
14:06: <irina_r> and want more information?
14:06: <ruphy> those are the most prominent buttons
14:06: <ruphy> with some text below it
14:06: <Jucato> annew: sure. we should point that out too
14:07: <irina_r> "how to get it" is hardly relevant when you already have it and it pointed you to the site.
14:07: <Nightrose> irina_r: yes but they can scroll a little
14:07: <Jucato> annew: but some curious non-KDE users wouldn't know immediately
14:07: <Nightrose> we need to sell to first timers first
14:07: <ruphy> the 2-sentences phrase that describes really briefly what is KDE
14:07: <ruphy> then
14:07: <_CitizenKane_> irina_r: well, we also have relevant things for users to connect to other users
14:07: <ruphy> below that
14:07: <Jucato> irina_r: have you done IRC support a lot lately? :
14:07: <irina_r> yes, true
14:07: <annew> Nightrose: I don't
14:07: <Socceroos_home> So far, we're describing the kind of user that has come to KDE.org to learn
14:07: <Nightrose> annew: ?
14:07: <Jucato> I stil get a lot of "how do I install KDE" in #kde and #kubuntu :)
14:07: <irina_r> no, only been supported :-)
14:07: <Socceroos_home> interact, share, help, learn and play?
14:08: <annew> Nightrose: I don't agree - word of mouth, from existing users, sells best
14:08: <ruphy> we have all the other links... below it. including one that lists all the kde.org umbrella
14:08: <annew> sorry - fingers in a twist again
14:08: <ruphy> how does that sound?
14:08: <Jucato> annew: we cannot presume that that is the only way people will hear about or get KDE
14:08: <Nightrose> annew: true but the websites most prominent point at the top should be the ones i mentioned
14:08: <BernhardRode> ruphy: +1
14:08: <Jucato> I for one didn't try out KDE until I well researched it
14:08: <Nightrose> annew: that doesn't make word-of-mouth any less importnat
14:08: <Socceroos_home> Ruphy: that is a solid idea
14:09: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: sounds good initially, I think it should be a topic for another meeting
14:09: <annew> probably the biggest IT sell this year was 'easy to learn, easy to use, easy to play' or whatever it was
14:09: <Socceroos_home> is it all static though?
14:09: <Jucato> Socceroos_home: CMS? :P
14:09: <_CitizenKane_> Socceroos_home: sounds like a bit of a mix, I can start sketching some stuff out
14:09: <Socceroos_home> YEAH YEAG< CMS CMS!!!!!111one
14:09: <Jucato> heheeh
14:09: <irina_r> :-P
14:09: <_CitizenKane_> lol
14:09: <Socceroos_home> lol
14:09: <Jucato> lol
14:09: <annew> I can see how you can make it prettier, but I'm still not seeing how this is less static
14:10: <irina_r> not only prettier, but more inviting without making it portally.
14:10: <Jucato> annew: where not yet talking about static vs. dynamic content
14:10: <annew> sorry to seem obtuse, but it's not getting me there
14:10: <Jucato> Socceroos_home just wanted to put that in :)
14:10: <annew> so what do we want to see? I still dont know
14:10: <Jucato> we're talking about *what* should be there first
14:10: <Socceroos_home> ruphy's suggestion is a good one, and it caters well for the 'learn' user, but should we try and cater for interact, share, help, learn and play.
14:11: <mdik> one question: how static is drupal? cant you make a info-box with the latest dot-news like we got it?
14:11: <Melchiorre> How about we discuss this in another meeting, and try to finish off the rest of this one's agenda. I'll need to head off soonish :)
14:11: <ruphy> Socceroos: ok, but that's a h3, to say it html-ly
14:11: <irina_r> Melchiorre: good idea
14:11: <irina_r> can we do this every Friday? :-)
14:12: <ruphy> we can put less prominent links with "get involved" "get help" and the others
14:12: <ruphy> Melchiorre: :D
14:12: <Mek> mdik: drupal is as flexible as you want it to be
14:12: <Melchiorre> mdik: Drupal allows you to do just about anything - just depends how much time you spend on it. You could write a module to do that, or also include php code in the page.
14:12: <Jucato> ruphy: don't forget to make room for news, blogs, etc
14:12: <Jucato> Melchiorre: even shoot your foot I bet :)
14:12: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: at the top we should cater to "learn" and then interact a little lower at the top
14:12: <Nightrose> Socceroos_home: the first look is most important for new users
14:12: <Nightrose> we need to get them in the first 5 sec
14:12: <Nightrose> or they might be lost
14:12: <Nightrose> and just go to another page
14:12: <Nightrose> the ones who already know kde will stay longer than that
14:12: <ruphy> Jucato: that's not going on the frontpage, maybe just a link... KISS!
14:13: <Melchiorre> Jucato: for sure :)
14:13: <mdik> Me*: well, then its fine isnt it?
14:13: <ruphy> but yeah, I'll hide again, so we can get back on the real topic ;-)
14:13: <Jucato> ruphy: um. I thought we wanted that in the front page :)
14:13: <Socceroos_home> So, are we agreed that the landing page needs to cater mainly for the new user?
14:13: <_CitizenKane_> OK, so onto number 4, community management
14:13: <Jucato> (part of the "including the community")
14:13: <Socceroos_home> with community sprinkled in?
14:13: <frankkarlitschek> this discussion reminds of all the other kde-www discussions in the last 7 years. discussion about cms and design. any suggestions how we get something done in the next few weeks?
14:13: <BernhardRode> Socceroos_home: +1
14:13: <irina_r> Socceroos_home: and to the experienced user who doesn't have a particular destination
14:14: <irina_r> or wants somehting different than usual
14:14: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: we can start contacting app maintainers to get old pages decomissioned
14:14: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: in the next two weeks the plan is to have jobs assigned and to get moving, yete
14:14: <Socceroos_home> yete = yes
14:14: <frankkarlitschek> Socceroos_home: sounds good
14:14: <ruphy> Jucato: usually, who cares about news is not the occasional visitor which we should get, but is the abitual visitor, who probably has already dot.k.o bookmarked. or knows what he's looking for and where to find it.
14:13: <ruphy> Jucato: we should certainly put it, but not too much prominent
14:13 -!- fred-zapquebec [[email protected]] has joined #kde-www
14:13: <Socceroos_home> frankkarlitschek: at the moment, its a bit of a process to actually define those jobs :)
14:13: <Jucato> ruphy: hm.. I never said it had to be prominent
14:13: <Jucato> ruphy: I meant "make room in your design" :)
14:13: <ruphy> ok :-)
14:13: <ruphy> then we agree =)
14:13: <Jucato> doesn't necessarily at the top :P
14:13: <Melchiorre> _CitizenKane_: I'm not sure we should be contacting people until we know what their options are. Its going to be much easier for us if we contact them saying "We're doing changing the site like this: what do you want us to do with your content" rather than saying "we don't really know what we're doing, what do you want to do?"
14:13: <Jucato> ruphy: I'm not yet that insane. so yes we agree :)
14:16: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: i completely disagree. news, blogs user and developer pictures, aplications should be on the homepage. we don't want a boring corporate site
14:16: <frankkarlitschek> kde is a opensource community not a company
14:16: <irina_r> Melchiorre: agree about that, we have to be able to tell them what we're doing
14:16: <Jucato> frankkarlitschek: what he meant was that it shouldn't exactly be the first or biggest thing that the user sees...
14:16: <_CitizenKane_> Melchiorre: well, for the apps we know what we're going to do, it's pretty much going on to userbase or techbase
14:17: <Jucato> Melchiorre, irina_r: but I think it would be best that we actually gave them a heads up first and to ask if they will be updating their sites
14:17: <irina_r> and people might like to remove their own obsolete content first before migrating it
14:17: <BernhardRode> then why do't we learn proven Web 2.0 Community principals *sorryforthebuzzwordbingo*
14:17: <irina_r> or they'll be shaken up and think: oh, yes, I've got that, I'll do something
14:17: <Melchiorre> Jucato: _CitizenKane_: Ok, if we've decided to go with userbase and techbase that thats cool :)
14:18: <BernhardRode> @frankkarlitschek
14:18: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: sure, but www.k.o is not meant to be strictly for the community. it's meant more for the user not yet in the community, so journalists, newbies, and buisnesses
14:18: <ruphy> it's the starting place
14:19: <frankkarlitschek> even companies have news on the homepage. and we should show even more who we are
14:19: <Socceroos_home> but as the starting place, should it be for the community or for the unconverted?
14:19: <Nightrose> ruphy: frankkarlitschek's point is that community is one of our biggest selling points and we should show it
14:19: <mdik> ruphy: i heard that kde.org is NOT for the newbie, but buisness, journalists etc
14:20: <ruphy> once one knows the mechanisms, he can "tolerate" the additional clutter, and he knows what to filter, and how to do what he wants. the user that comes on kde.org doesn't know much about KDE, and it should be its landing point. he doesn't care much about what the developers blogged, or if KFoo just released 0.3.5-beta, imo.
14:20: <Nightrose> mdik: no matter what we want newbies will go there and we should show them what kde is
14:21: <BernhardRode> ruphy: +1
14:21: <ruphy> mdik: i think newbie is in the same category here.
14:21: <ruphy> "let's see if KDE is any interesting"
14:21: <_CitizenKane_> ruphy: but it helps give the feeling if being big and meaningful
14:21: <_CitizenKane_> of being big and meaningful
14:21: <Nightrose> and it shows that there are actuyll people working on this
14:21: <Nightrose> and it is not anonymous
14:22: <Nightrose> *actually
14:22: <ruphy> news is certainly important, it shouldn't be too much important on the frontpage though
14:22: <Socceroos_home> OK guys, we don't have to stop talking now. but If we could officially wrap things up for this meeting. Going on to talk about open collaboration now would keep me here all night.
14:22: <frankkarlitschek> Nightrose: and it shows the users that they can become a part of it
14:22: <Nightrose> jep
14:23: <Socceroos_home> Topics we have resolved?
14:23: <mdik> Nightrose, ruphy: im on your side. just wanted to state what other vipeople told me... :]
14:23: <_CitizenKane_> We have decided to try and move as many app pages to userbase and techbase
14:23: <Nightrose> mdik: and those people could still be send to the other sites with the "what is kde" button
14:23: <Nightrose> ;-)
14:23: <Socceroos_home> _CitizenKane_: yep
14:23: <_CitizenKane_> We will be contacting app maintainers in the coming weeks to get the ball rolling
14:24: <_CitizenKane_> A strict licensing policy needs to be created for kde website content
14:24: <Socceroos_home> Yep, we will need to compile a more complete list of who we need to contact
14:24: <annew> _CitizenKane_: if there was content newer than about 18 months it has been migrated to userbase although still on w.k.o.
14:24: <_CitizenKane_> annew: ok
14:25: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: absolutely, that comes later though. the first thing they should see when they land on kde.org, is something straight to the point, that gives them immediate satisfaction, and gives *then* the possibility to explore more. most people close the browser window after less than one minute, the first seconds is a crucial time where we have to win them and guide them into discovering what KDE is.
14:25: <_CitizenKane_> And finally, the KDE web sphere needs to become better organized, easier to navigate for the various contingencies
14:25: <pinheiro> ruphy: ++++
14:25: <ruphy> pinheiro: :-)
14:26: <Melchiorre> ruphy: I agree too :)
14:26: <_CitizenKane_> I suppose there will be a kde.org redesign will happen too, but that's going to need fleshing out first
14:27: <Socceroos_home> yep
14:27: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: the questions is if you can get a wow effect with a big and pretty marketing picture or with content
14:27 -!- toscalix [[email protected]] has joined #kde-www
14:27: <Melchiorre> go the picture
14:27: <irina_r> er, a bit of both? get attention with big & pretty, keep attention with content
14:28: <neverendingo> though not official till sebas makes the announcement, may i say that there is a new family member online: forum.kde.org
14:28: <_CitizenKane_> Alright, well Socceroos_home and I will be blogging about this, organizing some additional meetings and getting the ball rolling on these efforts
14:29: <Melchiorre> neverendingo: nice!
14:29: <Socceroos_home> There is obviously a lot to discuss guys, some issues are also more important that I first envisioned. We didn't get through our plan, but we have at least got a solid start.
14:29: <OhReally> neverendingo: thanks!
14:29: <neverendingo> it's a forum!! ;)
14:29: <_CitizenKane_> neverendingo: cool
14:29: * irina_r is not a big fan of forums but it looks okay and I'll register
14:29: <Socceroos_home> as _CitizenKane_ says, we need to organise another meeting - with a lot more specific topic. THere was too much to talk about this time round :)
14:30: <frankkarlitschek> the site can be pretty and nice. but in the content are we should show our content. for example the newest applications. this is more interesting for the users than a big marketing picture. like for example on gnome.org
14:30: <irina_r> still getting our feet wet
14:30: <frankkarlitschek> content area
14:31: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: pictures or other visual tricks, and very tailored and marketing content
14:31: <_CitizenKane_> frankkarlitschek: we'll have to talk more about open collaboration services, I'm really interested in implementing it
14:31: <ruphy> there's no other way
14:31: <ruphy> you can't fill it with a lot of text
14:31: <ruphy> at all
14:31: <ruphy> look at all the modern websites
14:31: <ruphy> they have the smaller text possible
14:31: <annew> ruphy: more and more are unreadable to me
14:32: <annew> just too tiny
14:32: <irina_r> me too
14:32: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: this doesn't have to be text. could be screenshots or developer or user pictures too
14:32: <annew> and poor colour contrast
14:32: <annew> pale grey text
14:32: <annew> or text on dark colours
14:32: <irina_r> the first thing people do with css always seems to be to make text unreadable
14:32: <annew> but I'm sure you know that
14:32: <ruphy> the user is then presented with text if he wants to read it
14:32: <ruphy> annew: yeah :-)
14:33: <annew> you'd be surprised how many ML users are over 70
14:33: <annew> and that often means failing sight
14:33: <ruphy> !
14:33: <ruphy> I wouldn't know
14:33: <annew> :-)
14:33: <ruphy> err
14:33: <irina_r> I'm only middle-aged but still bothered by tiny text
14:33: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: kde isn't a software vendor who has a product and users can buy and use it. we have to show the users that they are a part of it.
14:33: <ruphy> I mean, this surprises me :-
14:33: <ruphy> :-)
14:33: <ruphy> but yeah
14:34: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: yes - later
14:34: <ruphy> =)
14:34: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: later is too late
14:34: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: the first time that a user arrives there is not going to contribute
14:34: <ruphy> they should be at least told what it is
14:34: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: but we have to show that he could.
14:34: <ruphy> we could make a little visual tour
14:34: <irina_r> nice!
14:34: <ruphy> like the chrome comic (but shorter and better), to give an example
14:35: <ruphy> so that the user clicks and fascinatingly discovers KDE
14:35: <annma> yes but that needs people to do so
14:35: <ruphy> and the last one is something like...
14:35: <BernhardRode> so the user should be catched -> why not try to open a social website... if you get the user to register his visit won't be a one timer
14:35: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: no. we are not a software vendor :-)
14:35: <ruphy> "And you can be part of this - too!"
14:35: <ruphy> and a little explanation
14:35: <annma> ideas on what to do are easy, people to do them are more difficult
14:36: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: we are, for the target audience who will just look at the most important links
14:36: <ruphy> frankkarlitschek: for those who care more, they will look at the other parts and find that out too
14:37: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: it is afailure to think that we make kde and the rest of the world consume it. if we want to grow big. we have to integrate our userbase. transform users into fans into ambasadors, contributors, developers, ..
14:37: <ruphy> first the user need to get to know what is KDE and why it is so cool, and *then* we can trick^H^H^Hget him into contributing
14:38: <ruphy> they need to have the motivation, we can't put on our website as main text "please! contribute with us!!!"
14:38: <ruphy> that's, first of all, completely unprofessional
14:38: <annma> hmmm
14:38: <ruphy> and then, new users won't be even tempted by try us
14:38: <annma> we are not professional ruphy
14:38: <frankkarlitschek> ruphy: on the homepage we have to show our usp. and our usp is not a big marketing picture.
14:38: <mdik> frankkarlitschek: yes, but only the ones who really want it. if you push it too hard, youll create a gigantic bubble of stuff you dot wanna to have
14:39: <ruphy> contributors *need* to be motivated
14:39: <ruphy> we should clearly state that it's a possibility
14:39: <ruphy> we should make it easy for those who want to join us
14:39: <ruphy> but that's it
14:39: <annma> well it's not the time to discuss content when we barely find people to do release announcements
14:39: <irina_r> that means that you have to attract the motivated people, not try to motivate the unmotivated people
14:39: <frankkarlitschek> mdik: nobody is pushing to hard. but the homepage should show who we are. our USP. this is the most important think
14:39: <mdik> yeah, tell teh people how it works, but dont push tehm into contributing...
14:39: <ruphy> the user first gets the content, then gets to help
14:39: <_CitizenKane_> Alright, well I need to get some sleep, we will continue things at a later date
14:39: <_CitizenKane_> thanks everyone for coming