Calligra/End 2010 Text Styles UI IRC Meeting Log

This is the full IRC log of the conversations that took place during the text styles UI IRC meeting on December 26, 2010.

--- Log opened Sön Dec 26 19:47:39 2010
19:48 < estan> *testing logging*
20:00 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:03 < estan> we're missing the pierre's, but; meeting opened!
20:05 < boemann> thanks ,adn thanks for organizing
20:06 < estan> np.
20:06 < colomar> hi
20:06 < boemann> hi colomar
20:07 < boemann> great to see you here
20:07 < boemann> colomar: i've come a long way on the non-flickering docker stuff
20:08 < boemann> (side issue though)
20:08 < colomar> sounds great!
20:08 < boemann> but it does have one implication for what we are talking about
20:08 < boemann> the docker should only be two lines of text high
20:08 < boemann> anything else and it needs to pop up
20:10 < colomar> Two lines of text? That's not exactly much...
20:10 < estan> wow. the whole thing just two rows? so no long list of styles to choose from, but a combobox-ish thing?
20:10 < boemann> estan: yes
20:10 < boemann> well two rows of buttons
20:11 -!- PierreSt [[email protected]] has joined #calligra-styles-ui
20:11 < boemann> wellcome PierreSt we are not really started yet
20:11 < estan> hmhm. okay.. not very good discoverability, needs a click to see available styles.. pretty radical imho ;)
20:11 < PierreSt> hello there
20:11 < colomar> But can users still add a bigger "normal" styles docker if they wish?
20:12 < estan> ^ my question too.
20:12 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has joined #calligra-styles-ui
20:12 < boemann> they can
20:12 < boemann> but it's bad for flexibility for users
20:12 < estan> so we'll discuss the UI of both then i guess.
20:13 < boemann> colomar: well you can add as many dockers your need . the point is you can then give aach two rows a headline too
20:14 < boemann> estan: regarding discoverability with two rows you can make a single tall widget that shows a lot
20:15 < boemann> plus a headline saying styles
20:15 < colomar> ?
20:15 < boemann> let me screen shot for you guys
20:15 < colomar> Okay maybe you should clarify what you mean by "two rows"
20:15 < colomar> Yes please ;)
20:15 < estan> boemann: ah. when you said "two lines of text" i was imagining you meant it as a # of pixel limit, but you mean two logical rows, that might be high?
20:16 < estan> yea ;)
20:16 < colomar> dito
20:16 < boemann> estan: no i meant limit on number of pixels
20:16 < estan> hm. okay.
20:17 < colomar> So how can you fit a tall widget in there then?
20:17 < estan> another thing, but we can get to that later; i'd really like us to iron out how styles should be applied by the user.. single/double click, apply buttons (where?), d&d.. et.c.
20:17  * estan wonders too.
20:18 < boemann> http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2861/docker.png
20:19 < boemann> as you can see right now the styles section is too tall in relation to the others
20:19 < boemann> though there is a scrollbar
20:19 < colomar> ah ok. But that still doesn't allow to see many styles at a time
20:20 < boemann> exactly
20:20 < boemann> so a popup is needed
20:20 < boemann> just like when chosing fonts
20:20 < estan> yes, that's what i mean when i say discoverability. i mean the user can find the styles docker easy enough, but with just a combobox there won't be any way to see the available styles without clicking.
20:20 < boemann> or popup on hover
20:20 < estan> hm. ok.
20:21 < colomar> Hover is problematic
20:21 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:21 < colomar> It always has the problem that it disappears if the cursor moves outside of its boundaries
20:21 < estan> as you can hear i'm a little sceptical, but sure lets roll with it and see where it gets us ;)
20:22 < colomar> Here's what I think of it so far:
20:22 < colomar> Many office suites use a combo box to choose styles and that works okay
20:22 < estan> with this compact styles docker, how would the user go about editing the properties of a style? would the items in the combobox be pimped up items of some kind, with minibuttons for bringing up properties?
20:23 < colomar> But for users who use styles very often, a list box is much more convenient
20:24 < colomar> So we should still allow those users to add a docker with a list to their sidebar
20:24 < boemann> i use styles a lot but would still prefer a popup thing
20:24 < colomar> Why?
20:24 < estan> aye, interacting with a combobox is more fiddling.
20:24 < boemann> because when i still spend most of the time writing
20:25 < colomar> ?
20:25 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has joined #calligra-styles-ui
20:25 < boemann> even if i change style every so often, i still spend much more time on typing
20:25 < colomar> But on a widescreen you don't need the horizontal space anyway, so a sidebar won't hinder you
20:26 < boemann> says who, i certainly would like as much horizontal space i can get
20:26 < boemann> and i have a widescreen
20:26 < colomar> What for? To zoom in extremely?
20:26 < boemann> zoom out more likely so i can see a page width and still make out the letters
20:27 < estan> why do you spend more time typing with a combobox vs. a list? not sure i understand.
20:27 < boemann> estan: i don't
20:27 < boemann> i spend more typing than choosing styles
20:28 < colomar> You might want a maximum of horizontal space, okay. But there was a Reason why the KOffice team originally came up with a docker bar to the right
20:28 < ZaggeM> the docker is also used in e.g. stage
20:28 < colomar> And I still find that reasonable
20:28 < boemann> how i choose styles offcourse needs to be efficiennt, but related to having a good overall ui having a list is not that important
20:28 < colomar> Of course we should not force users to have one
20:28 < boemann> not forcing is one, and i still whant the left side for dockers
20:29 < estan> alright, i get your argument now.
20:29 < colomar> But I know many many users for whom vertical space is a lot more precious than horizontal space
20:29  * estan raises hand.
20:29 < boemann> well horizontal is more important if you will be srolling left and right while you type
20:30 < colomar> True, but not all users use zoom levels that would require that
20:30 < colomar> This is really a matter of personal preference
20:31 < boemann> it's not about zoom levels but screen size
20:31 < boemann> anyway
20:31 < colomar> And of Screen aspect ratio and size
20:31 < colomar> yes
20:31 < boemann> it should be flexible enough to accomodate all users
20:31  * estan agrees.
20:32 < colomar> totally agree
20:32 < boemann> and having a popup for a list of styles doesn't seem that big a sacrifice to me
20:33 < PierreSt> but if this is the case, then the interaction with the popup should be minimal
20:33 < colomar> So what would be the disadvantage if a user chooses to add a separate, taller docker for styles if she finds a list more comfortable than a combo box?
20:33 < boemann> none
20:33 < colomar> Ok.
20:34 < boemann> colomar: well except you would get back in to the flickering
20:34 < PierreSt> i mean: if we have a popup, it should already be populated with either (and only) the headings or char or parag
20:34 < colomar> boemann: yes
20:34 < boemann> PierreSt: yes
20:34 < PierreSt> which means that the choice of styel type should be available before the popup
20:35  * boemann much more interested in the design of the list than of: list or popup
20:35 < estan> +1
20:35 < colomar> yes
20:35 < PierreSt> i reiterate what i said with the list then
20:36 < PierreSt> i find that this mixture of headings/char/parag style overly confusing
20:36 < colomar> absolutely
20:36 < PierreSt> in one common list
20:36 < boemann> actually PierreSt brought up something i've been thinking about: do we want two lists. one for char and one for parag
20:36 < boemann> i for sure think the tree structure is too complex
20:37 < boemann> i get it, but am sure no normal user does
20:37 < PierreSt> the thing is:
20:37 < estan> i don't even understand it. i did once but now i've forgotten it.
20:37 < colomar> Basically I'd say yes. What we should consider, though, is the fact that paragraph styles are probably used a lot more than character styles
20:37 < PierreSt> a paragraph style is composed of two entities:
20:37 < PierreSt> the character style of the paragraph, and the "layout" style of the paragraph
20:38 < PierreSt> and here comes the confusion
20:38  * boemann uses parag styles much more yes, but i also heavily use char styles
20:38 < colomar> Maybe we should start with thinking about when which is used when
20:38 < boemann> ms word solves this by listing the parag styles at the beginning of the list and char styles below
20:38 < PierreSt> so you have orphaned char styles, and char styles which belongs to a paragraph style
20:39 < boemann> also ms word has the filter of only showing styles in use
20:39 < ZaggeM> a paragraph style has always a char style in itself
20:39 < PierreSt> i think this is good for the docker
20:40 < PierreSt> ZaggeM: does it have to define one?
20:40 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: in the end it will use the default
20:40 < boemann> well if it doesn't define it's properties it will fall back to defaults
20:40 < ZaggeM> :-)
20:41 < boemann> so colomar asked about uses
20:41 < PierreSt> which means that a parag style do not necessarily have (ie, own) a char style
20:42 < colomar> We're in danger of getting too technical here
20:42 < PierreSt> it could well only define the "layout" properties
20:42 < boemann> PierreSt: no it has also char properties
20:43 < boemann> i use parag style both to set the font and the layout of a paragraph
20:43 < boemann> like for example a headline
20:43 < ZaggeM> PierreSt in odf it does have but as all is inherit it does not need to set properties
20:43 < boemann> or main text
20:43 < colomar> We should focus back on users and uses. Users neither know nor care about properties, inheritance, embedded styles or anything like that ;)
20:43 < PierreSt> my question was not if it can have char properties, but if it must have char properties
20:43 < boemann> if i wan't my headlines to have different size i then edit the headline (parag) style, but it's char properties
20:44 < PierreSt> which ZaggeM answered
20:44 < boemann> colomar: not completely true, all of those things are commonly exposed to users
20:45 < estan> alright, but the parent child relationsship between parag and char styles, what's the point of exposing that to users?
20:45 < colomar> exactly
20:45 < ZaggeM> no use
20:45 < PierreSt> estan: i don't think there is any in the docker
20:45 < boemann> none afaict
20:45 < estan> is there currently any way for the user to define a char style that two parag style uses?
20:45 < colomar> The fact that it's exposed to them doesn't mean it's useful
20:45 < estan> and would there be any point in giving that power to the user?
20:45 < ZaggeM> and in odf there is no separation
20:46 < PierreSt> estan: that power could be given but i don't think the docker is the place for that
20:46 < estan> PierreSt: i agree.
20:46 < boemann> uhm a parag style can't inherit a char style afaik
20:46 < colomar> I'd think the difference between char and paragraph styles from a user's point of view is a lot more simple:
20:46 < estan> boemann: sorry i probably phrased it bad. the parag style has a char style, can two parag styles have the same char style?
20:46 < colomar> When I want to change the appearance of a paragraph, I use a paragraph style
20:46 < ZaggeM> estan: no
20:47 < estan> ZaggeM: aight.
20:47 < colomar> If I want to change only the appearance of some words/chars within a paragraph, I use a char style
20:47 < boemann> colomar: exactly
20:47 < estan> right.
20:47 < PierreSt> ZaggeM: can't two named parag style use the same named char style in odf?
20:47 < ZaggeM> estan: in odf the paragraph and char style is on style
20:47 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: not in odf
20:48 < colomar> So we should focus on that distinction instead of thinking about any technical implications
20:48 < boemann> a parag style has parag and char propertiesn, it doesn't have styles
20:48 < estan> ZaggeM: ah.
20:48 < colomar> Technical stuff is important, but should be considered later
20:48 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: it can't evenuse one named char style
20:48 < boemann> the entire parag style can inerit from another entire parag style
20:49 < boemann> colomar: that destinction is also what happens echnically
20:49 < boemann> technically
20:49 < boemann> so
20:49 < boemann> question is how to present styles to the user
20:50 < colomar> Yes.
20:50 < ZaggeM> different icons
20:50 < ZaggeM> ?
20:50 < estan> i'm all for having two lists, one for parag styles and one for char styles.
20:50 < PierreSt> i think we should first visually segregate 3 different types: characters, paragraph, headings
20:50 < colomar> Wait. Let's see if we might be able to find a smarter solution
20:51 < colomar> Why do we need heading styles? Are those really different than paragraph styles?
20:51 < PierreSt> technically no
20:51 < ZaggeM> not in my pov
20:51 < PierreSt> but for me a title is different than a paragraph
20:51 < boemann> 1) you can have both a current parag style plus a current char style, at THE SAME time
20:51 < boemann> heading and parag styles are one and the same
20:51 < ZaggeM> all is different but still it is onlz a style
20:52 < boemann> just more properties set
20:52 < colomar> Let's focus on the use cases again
20:52 < PierreSt> boemann: yes technically a heading and a paragraph style is the same
20:53 < PierreSt> however if i present you a piece of text and tell you, point me a paragraph, will you point me the title?
20:53 < colomar> What if we do what KDE generally hates to do but often still helps the user: Guessing what the user wants to do?
20:53 < ZaggeM> I think we need an easy way to set a style
20:53 < colomar> My suggestion:
20:53 < ZaggeM> also it should allways be visible which style is used at thr moment
20:53 < boemann> colomar: i my view guessing is always bad, but go ahead
20:54 < colomar> Not necessarily. Only if done bad and there is no way around the guess
20:54 < boemann> ZaggeM: but there are both a current parag and char style
20:54 < ZaggeM> boemann: not allways
20:55 < boemann> true, but i can be in a body text paragraph with a word in "emphasis" char style
20:55 < colomar> If the user selects a whole paragraph, she will most of the time want to set the paragraph style for it. There still has to be a way to set a char style to a whole paragraph, but it should be easier to set the paragraph style at that point
20:56 < boemann> colomar: i don't want to select a whole paragraph in order to change it's style
20:56 < colomar> If the user selects only a word or character within a paragraph, it is _very_ unlikely she wants to set a paragraph style for it
20:56 < boemann> true
20:56 < colomar> boemann: true
20:56 < colomar> So if nothing is selected, it's paragraph style
20:57 < colomar> Because you don't want to set the char style for "nothing"
20:57 < boemann> right
20:57 < boemann> well
20:57 < ZaggeM> not sure if that is right
20:57 < boemann> i might want to be able to see the stye i wil begin typing with
20:57 < PierreSt> colomar: not really, you might want to select the char style of what you are going to type
20:58 < ZaggeM> I often e.g. change the font size before I start typing
20:58 < boemann> me too, except i choose a char style :)
20:58 < colomar> yes, but usually you change it before you start a new paragraph, don't you?
20:58 < PierreSt> not necessarily
20:58 < PierreSt> if i want to add something in the middle of a paragraph (like a citation)
20:59 < boemann> +1
20:59 < colomar> Yes. I don't say it never happens
20:59 < colomar> That's why we still need to support it
21:00 < colomar> I'm just not sure if we have to present both kinds equally prominently at all times
21:00 < ZaggeM> but from what I read here it sound most likely we should have two different thinks char and paragraph styles at the same time
21:00 < colomar> I'm not offering completely thought-through solutions here. I'm just trying to think "out of the box" a little
21:01 < boemann> colomar: sure, and so do we
21:01 < boemann> two lists is not common at all
21:02 < boemann> filtering yes
21:02 < PierreSt> i think we should in a first step present the categories, to the user, then display the list of the pointed category in a second stage
21:02 < boemann> that is how ooo does it
21:02 < PierreSt> a bit like the Lancelot launcher
21:02 < colomar> But then there is yet another click
21:02 < boemann> but it adds another step :(
21:02 < colomar> yes
21:03 < PierreSt> or mouse over, but the user is already disrupting his typing
21:03 < PierreSt> to grab his pointing device
21:03 < boemann> colomar: well not if the choises are selected already in the dopopupstage
21:03 < ZaggeM> we could have a tabbed docker on for paragraph and one for char styles
21:04 < ZaggeM> or a selector for the different styles
21:04 < PierreSt> so i don't think that this small extra step is worse than a visual complex docker all the time
21:04 < boemann> i'm beginning to agree
21:05 < boemann> i've been very torn on this issue
21:05 < PierreSt> we could also think at providing (keyborad) shortcuts for setting specific syles
21:05 < estan> i'm not sure i understand, "in a first step present the categories", how would that look, UI-wise?
21:05 < PierreSt> without disrupting the typing ork flow
21:06 < boemann> two buttons, each pop up their own list
21:06 < ZaggeM> I would more likely prefer a switch between paragraph and char styles
21:06 < colomar> I'm sorry I don't have KOffice nor Calligra installed at the machine I'm currently at, so could you please tell me how it currently behaves:
21:06 < PierreSt> estan: have you got Lancelot app launcher?
21:06 < estan> PierreSt: no :/
21:06 < ZaggeM> boemann: we should still display the current style to the user
21:06 < colomar> What happens if i place the cursor somewhere (without selecting anything) and change apply a paragraph style
21:06 < colomar> ?
21:06 < PierreSt> well: it functions a bit like OS X finder
21:07 < boemann> ZaggeM: sure but that is just what is painted on the button
21:07 < colomar> Is it applied to the paragraph the cursor currently is in?
21:07 < ZaggeM> boemann: ???
21:07 < estan> PierreSt: haven't used that either ;)
21:07 < boemann> colomar: the parag is style is changed
21:08 < boemann> ZaggeM: nevermind i agree with you
21:08 < PierreSt> estan: well imagine you have the docker with just two lines: paragraph >, and character >
21:08 < estan> PierreSt: right.
21:08 < colomar> And what happens if I apply a character style?
21:08 < PierreSt> when you hover one line, a list appears next to it with all the corresponding styles
21:09 < boemann> colomar: it sets the current charstyle that you will write any new text with
21:09 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: I don't like this approch
21:09 < colomar> Oh. So paragraph and char styles behave quite differently
21:09 < estan> PierreSt: alright, so the idea is just two lists?
21:09 < estan> (or well, combo boxes)
21:10 < colomar> One changes things that are already written, the other doesn't
21:10 < boemann> colomar: well if you have selected a range of text and select a char style it will be applied to that text
21:10 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: for our use cas we could show 2 drop down boxes and use the same space but have more information
21:10 < PierreSt> well, i just described the thing at concept level, not visual representation
21:11 < ZaggeM> colomar: the behaviour boemann describes is what I expect as user
21:11 < colomar> ZaggeM: Yes, it is
21:12 < boemann> The one bad thing about two lists is that you can have a situation where there is no current  char style (new text will be using the font properties of the parag style)
21:12 < colomar> But that means they do quite different things with those and we should probably treat them more differently than just place to comboboxes next to each other
21:12 < PierreSt> ok, i have a bit of a situation here, i'll leave the computer on, but won't be in front of the keyboard for a while
21:12 < PierreSt> so i can catch up later
21:12 < boemann> PierreSt: okay
21:13 < estan> boemann: well wouldn't the combobox/whatever show Character Style: None then or something?
21:13 < colomar> boemann: I don't really see a problem here. We can just display "none" for the current char style
21:13 < boemann> colomar: maybe, but both ooo and msword doesn't care 
21:13 < boemann> colomar: sure
21:14 < boemann> estan: sure too
21:14 < ZaggeM> boemann: we could have an entry in the char list saying use char style from paragraph
21:14 < boemann> ZaggeM: good point
21:14 < boemann> actually this makes a lot of sense to me
21:15 < colomar> So does every paragraph style always have a corresponding char style?
21:16 < boemann> no
21:16 < ZaggeM> I think we all say these are 2 different thinks so e should treat them differently
21:16 < ZaggeM> colomar: depends on how you see it
21:16 < boemann> colomar: a parag style define char properties, but is not related to char styles at all
21:16 < boemann> colomar: so only if you don't have an overruling char style will the the char properties of the paragraph style be sued
21:17 < boemann> used
21:18 < boemann> and being allowed to set the char style back to none means that we ones again rely on what the parag style defines
21:18 < colomar> I'd still think "none" would be less confusing than "use char style from paragraph", since we want to present these two as pretty much unrelated
21:18 < ZaggeM> colomar: that is fine by me too
21:19 < boemann> yes but it could be like: "NONE, what is shown relies on the current paragstyle"
21:19 < colomar> Theoretically, but that would be a bit long to fit in a list, wouldn't it?
21:19 < ZaggeM> a bit long for a combobox :-)
21:19 < boemann> explaination with small letters 
21:20 < colomar> Maybe a tooltip?
21:20  * estan tries to mock it.
21:20 < ZaggeM> it could be in a tooltip
21:20 < estan> yea tooltip is probably good idea..
21:21 < boemann> while estan mocks we could talk about list vs tree
21:22 < boemann> is there anyone in favour of showing inheritance in tree?
21:22 < boemann> or should the (pretty insignificant) inheritance oly be visible in properties
21:22 < boemann> only
21:22 < ZaggeM> tree might be more obvious
21:23 < boemann> it would show the relation for sure
21:23 < boemann> but is it relevant
21:23 < ZaggeM> but not sure it needs to be shown in the list
21:23 < colomar> I don't think it's relevant enough
21:23 < ZaggeM> we could have 2 modes
21:23 < boemann> ZaggeM: or maybe use tree in the style manager but only list here
21:24 < ZaggeM> one with tree and one without
21:24 < ZaggeM> orderd by name
21:24 < ZaggeM> which is better for selecting
21:24 < colomar> boemann's idea sounds good
21:24 < ZaggeM> what is here?
21:24 < boemann> the docker
21:24 < colomar> The inheritance only matters when creating or editing styles
21:24 < colomar> Not when selecting them
21:25 < boemann> yeah
21:25 < boemann> i can't think of a case where inheritance seem significant when selecting
21:26 < colomar> me neither
21:27 < ZaggeM> so the docker will bring up the style manager for editing styles?
21:27 < boemann> ZaggeM: i was just thinking that we may want that indeed
21:27 < colomar> Id's just place an icon next to the combo boxes to edit styles
21:27 < boemann> just with the style preselected
21:28 < colomar> yep
21:28 < ZaggeM> sounds good
21:28 < estan> http://dose.se/styles-mock.png
21:29 < boemann> estan: for concept yes
21:29 < estan> yes of course.
21:29 < boemann> i'd use icons instead of writing paragraph or character , or maybe even making it obvious from the combo itself
21:30 < boemann> or i'd may want to two have two dockers
21:30 < ZaggeM> what if there are char styles applied and I want to set it to the paragraph style?
21:31 < boemann> ZaggeM: you'd select the none option
21:31 < ZaggeM> 2 docker might be a bit much
21:32 < boemann> well for the "popped down look" of the combo i'd like to show what the style looks like
21:32 < colomar> good idea
21:33 < colomar> Just like the usual font selector
21:33 < estan> boemann: (refresh)
21:33 < ZaggeM> might be hard for the char style if e.g. only italic is set
21:33 < boemann> I'm thinking we can even show the char and parag styles differently, makinging it easier to see the difference
21:33 < colomar> Although it might be difficult to visualize char layout
21:33 < boemann> estan: yup :)
21:33 < ZaggeM> or will it use the current font to create the preview?
21:34 < boemann> ZaggeM: preview could be based on on content yes
21:34 < colomar> estan: Yes, only I'd use better Icons ;) Finding distinguishable icons for paragraph and character shouldn't be too hard
21:35 < colomar> ZaggeM: Yes, that would be good
21:35 < estan> colomar: of course, i'm just kludging this in inkscape as we speak ;)
21:35 < boemann> okay here is another question:
21:35 < colomar> Thought so ;)
21:35 < boemann> automatic styles (ie style not named)
21:35 < colomar> estan: Just wanted to make sure they don't stick ;)
21:35 < boemann> do we show them?
21:36 < colomar> hm...
21:36 < boemann> colomar: easy, we all hate the current ones ;)
21:36 < estan> boemann: no! ;)
21:36 < ZaggeM> in the text styles 
21:36 < estan> i was going to bring that up, i think showing them is bad and confusing.
21:36 < ZaggeM> where you also can set them
21:36 < ZaggeM> we should not show them as styles
21:37 < colomar> agree
21:37 < boemann> so how do we then show that what is current is a style plus some add-hoc properties
21:37 < colomar> They should not be exposed to the user at all. Unless she wants to create a new style from the current settings
21:37 < ZaggeM> so that would be mainly as it is at the moment
21:38 < colomar> boemann: Might make sense to change the appearance of the name in the combo box
21:38 < colomar> maybe add an icon
21:38 < boemann> maybe in the docker show a + sign next to the combo to show that
21:38 < boemann> :)
21:38 < colomar> something like that
21:39 < boemann> clicking on that icon/+sign could bring up the stylemanager filled out so the user can create a new named style of current settings?
21:40 < colomar> yes
21:42 < boemann> okay then
21:42 < boemann> now for the list we have:
21:42 < boemann> show as list
21:43 < boemann> single click to apply?
21:43 < colomar> yes
21:43 < ZaggeM> definitely
21:43 < boemann> an extra button on each entry to bring up the stylemanager
21:43 < estan> hm. that means no way to just select a style in the list (not apply it) e.g. in order to change its properties.
21:44 < estan> boemann: alright, problem solved ;)
21:44 < boemann> :9
21:44 < boemann> :)
21:44 < estan> i like that, it brings the action closer to what it's acting on.
21:44 < boemann> and takes up less space :)
21:45 < colomar> We'll have to see if the list doesn't look too crowded with all those buttons
21:45 < boemann> colomar: they can be visible on hover only
21:45 < colomar> boemann: Sounds good
21:46 < boemann> also only show named styles
21:46 < colomar> For that case, hover is okay, since this action is not that common so users can take a little more time to move the mouse precisely
21:46 < boemann> anything else?
21:46 < estan> yes, i want a hacker way of applying styles.
21:46 < colomar> *lol*
21:47 < estan> a key combo that brings up a type-ahead searchable list of styles.
21:47 < estan> at the cursor location.
21:47 < estan> ;)
21:47 < colomar> *ggg*
21:47 < boemann> lol suit yourself :)
21:48 < boemann> but actually we should be able to apply styles by keyboard
21:48 < estan> could maybe be done as a plugin in the future i guess. but i think i'd really like it.
21:48 < boemann> and typing the name may be the only long term solution
21:48 < colomar> It would be cool, but there are quite a few more important things to do first, I guess ;)
21:48 < estan> +1
21:49 < estan> colomar: regarding cramped lists, did you see my old mockup? http://community.kde.org/File:Styles-tree-mock.png
21:50 < boemann> yeah, i think what we have will be way less cramped
21:50 < estan> yes.
21:50 < boemann> so how should the preview of a paragraph style look
21:50 < colomar> But we should redesign the alternative tall docker as well
21:51 < estan> the Properties: [P] [C] [L] in my mockup will be just one properties button, and the apply button doesn't have to say "Apply", could be just icon.
21:51 < boemann> colomar: wouldn't it just be the same list without the popup?
21:51 < colomar> estan: I think the list docker should apply on single click as well, since that's still by far the most common action
21:52 < estan> colomar: yea, i'm with you all on that.
21:52 < colomar> boemann: Could be, yes.
21:52 < colomar> But that would be a redesign compared to its current state, wouldn't it? ;)
21:52 < boemann> colomar: that would really help our efforts if that could be the case
21:53 < boemann> yes
21:53 < boemann> but we have to do that anyway
21:53 < colomar> The only problem there is: Two lists together would take up a lot of screen space
21:53 < estan> but if the two lists are exactly the same, except for the popup part of it, then having a button next to the combobox to bring up style manager wouldn't be necessary, as that action would be available on every item in the list.
21:53 < estan> right?
21:53 < colomar> estan: yes
21:53 -!- colomar [[email protected]] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:53 < estan> alright.
21:54 < estan> o noes we lost our usability man-power.
21:54  * boemann will do the preview in the near future, so would like some ideas on how the previews should look
21:55 -!- colomar [[email protected]] has joined #calligra-styles-ui
21:55  * boemann will do the preview in the near future, so would like some ideas on how the previews should look
21:55 < estan> right. how about a little window as in my mockup, but perhaps square shaped, and some kind of overlayed icon to show that hovering the preview square will bring up a full size preview.
21:55 < colomar> (sorry, client crashed. What did I miss?)
21:55 < estan> colomar: we waited for you ;)
21:55 < boemann> colomar: nothing
21:55 < colomar> thx
21:56 < boemann> estan: well first of all i'd like to use the entire entry to be a preview
21:56 < boemann> the text of the preview could be the name
21:56 < colomar> yes
21:57 < colomar> like all good font selectors do ;)
21:57 < boemann> yeah
21:57 < estan> boemann: okay.
21:57 < colomar> Visualising paragraph styles would be more tricky, though
21:57 < boemann> yeah
21:57 < boemann> as there are many more things that can happen
21:57 < colomar> Alignment might be doable if we use a little extra width
21:57 < boemann> including drop caps and line spacing
21:58 < colomar> (although it might be hard to tell justify from center
21:58 < colomar> )
21:58 < boemann> colomar: or a small symbolic representation
21:58 < estan> hm.. i think it's better for the list to just show the character properties of the style, and if you really want a full-blown preview of all the character properties, there could be a button to bring that up.
21:58 < boemann> like the icons on the buttons that chose
21:59 < colomar> estan: Or a tooltip instead of a button
21:59 < boemann> so char properties plus a small iconic preview
21:59 < estan> colomar: yes.
21:59 < boemann> and a popup yes
21:59 < estan> i think tooltip is a good idea, or maybe that's abusing tooltips?
21:59 < boemann> popup/tooltip
21:59 < colomar> estan: no
21:59 < colomar> I don't think so
21:59 < boemann> no krita does the tooltip thing with great success
22:00 < boemann> in it's layer box
22:00 < estan> alright.
22:00 < estan> but regarding the two lists, should we have a tabbed styles docker then, one tab with the list for character styles and another with the styles for paragraph styles?
22:01 < colomar> hm maybe
22:01 < boemann> still i think a small iconic representation is good too
22:01 < boemann> estan: i'd like them side by side and not tabbed
22:01 < colomar> boemann: I'm not sure. Maybe we should do a hi fidelity mockup of it and see if it looks good
22:01 < boemann> colomar: yeah
22:01 < estan> alright. but that will be one big docker.
22:02 < boemann> estan: yeah we'd have to experiment
22:02 < boemann> also for font size i don't think we should do actual representation
22:02 < boemann> only to an extent
22:03 < boemann> otherwise the text might become too big
22:03 < estan> yea, naturally there must be some limit.
22:03 < estan> hm. should both the compact and the big docker have buttons to add/remove styles?
22:04 < boemann> good question
22:04 < boemann> remove should be a popup on each entry
22:04 < boemann> as we don't select anymore
22:04 < colomar> yes
22:04 < estan> ah right.
22:04 < estan> but, popup? you mean a little pushbutton?
22:04 < boemann> yes
22:05 < estan> k.
22:05 < colomar> but appearing on hover
22:05 < colomar> like the edit button
22:05 < boemann> yes
22:05 < estan> yea.
22:05 < colomar> The big docker should definitely have an add button. I'm not entirely sure about the compact one, though...
22:06 < estan> yea me neither.
22:06 < boemann> me neither
22:06  * ZaggeM goes to bed
22:06 < boemann> g'night ZaggeM
22:06 < estan> good night.
22:06 < colomar> n8
22:06 < ZaggeM> was good to be here and see all the nice ideas
22:07 < estan> layout-wise it would be easier if it didn't have one. but for someone working with just the compact docker, how would he/she add a style then?
22:07 < boemann> you know the +sign next to current is a kind of add button already
22:07 < ZaggeM> but I have to say using the N900 as ird client is not easy
22:07 < boemann> ZaggeM: :)
22:08 < colomar> ZaggeM: I can imagine that
22:08 < estan> boemann: hm. plus sign? was this discussed earlier? or is it something that is there now? i must have missed that during a smoke break.
22:09 < colomar> estan: It is a button to add a modified style as a new one
22:09 < estan> ah.
22:09 < boemann> next to combo
22:10 < estan> ah. but in addition to that, could we not just have one item (the last?) in the combobox be "+ Add new" or something?
22:11 < boemann> could work
22:11 < colomar> hm maybe
22:12 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:12 < boemann> a little bit weird but could be made to look good
22:12 < boemann> it wouldn't be an entry but just some buttons that would be scrolled too
22:13 < boemann> hmm
22:13 < estan> yea. i've seen that approach used in some places. e.g. for filters in gmail if you've used that. it's a little wonky, but works.
22:14 < colomar> btw: I would place the button to add a modified style as a new one inside the combobox next to the current style as well, not next to the box
22:14 < boemann> colomar: yes
22:15 < estan> yes, i think that makes sense to, brings it closer to what it's related to.
22:15 < estan> it will be one pimped out combobox ;)
22:15  * estan back in 5.
22:16 < boemann> colomar: meanwhile in the first screenshot i showed
22:16 < boemann> in the top right corner there is a lock icon
22:16 < boemann> this brings up a titlebar for the super docker
22:16 < boemann> and unfixes the the size of the docker
22:17 < boemann> when locked the docker can not be moved or resized
22:17 < boemann> preventing flicker
22:17 < boemann> the scroll bar appears if the stuff inside is too large
22:18 < colomar> cool. That's pretty much what we had envisioned together, isn't it?
22:19 < boemann> yes
22:19 < boemann> i'm not sure if we have a build service set up for calligra yet
22:20 < boemann> but otherwise you might be able to try it out
22:21 < boemann> there is some details yet to be ironed out, and i stil need to do a tabbed mode
22:22 < colomar> I won't be able to try it this year anyway, since I'm at my parents' without my laptop and don't want to install anything on their machine
22:22 < colomar> So I can only try it when I'm back home
22:23 < estan> so, do we have any more burning issues regarding the styles UI to discuss? while we haven't covered everything naturally, i think we've concluded quite a bit already. it's a start at least.
22:23 < estan> tomorrow i'll re-read our conversation and summarize it on the wiki, and do a more serious first mockup sketch.
22:24 < estan> and then you can all comment on what i got wrong ;)
22:27 < estan> for now, i'll just put up the IRC log.